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Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
#51

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 10:26 PM)grympy Wrote:
(09-24-2019, 05:29 AM)Minimalist Wrote: No Roman writer mentions anyone named "jesus" until Celsus in the late 2d century CE.

I think the writings of Flavius Josephus (37-100CE) ,the Romanised  Jew, counts as Roman  source. He wrote extensively about Christians.   However, I've always  thought of Josephus as a  Roman apologist., and  have not given his writings much credence .  Was I wrong to be so dismissive? 

HOWEVER,  there are apparently  no surviving MS of Josephus' work dating before the 11th century. 

I found the bit below interesting, but have no idea  how reliable., Josephus was born after the putative death of Jesus, so is not a contemporary source.

Well, since Flavius Josephus was a known liar and wasn't a contemporary, I don't give any credence to a word he wrote, so he isn't a good source for any claim.
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#52

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Quote:HOWEVER,  there are apparently  no surviving MS of Josephus' work dating before the 11th century.


But that isn't the problem with it, Grymp.  Hell, the earliest manuscript we have for Justin's First Apology is from the 14th century.  (And yes, it has probably been tampered with.)  The problem with Josephus is that no other xtian writer mentions the TF before the 4th century.  Not a hint.  And then it suddenly appears in all its glory not the watered down version that modern jesus freaks insist is "authentic."  For a thousand years the church insisted that the TF was everything it claimed to be until it got too embarrassing!

You must understand that Josephus is important to them because without that fraud they have NOTHING.  And they can't stand the thought of having nothing.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#53

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 11:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:HOWEVER,  there are apparently  no surviving MS of Josephus' work dating before the 11th century.


But that isn't the problem with it, Grymp.  Hell, the earliest manuscript we have for Justin's First Apology is from the 14th century.  (And yes, it has probably been tampered with.)  The problem with Josephus is that no other xtian writer mentions the TF before the 4th century.  Not a hint.  And then it suddenly appears in all its glory not the watered down version that modern jesus freaks insist is "authentic."  For a thousand years the church insisted that the TF was everything it claimed to be until it got too embarrassing!

You must understand that Josephus is important to them because without that fraud they have NOTHING.  And they can't stand the thought of having nothing.

Not my special area of study, so I'm looking forward to more information ans sources about all of this. I appreciate it.
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#54

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Big Grin 

Enjoy.

http://www.josephus.org/eisler.htm

Quote:For fully 1200 years the church could boast of the sure and undisputed possession of an extremely remarkable testimony, pretiosissima et vix aestimabilis gemma [most precious and inestimable gem], as the old Viennese court librarian Petrus Lambeccius called it, a testimony rendered by an outsider to the truth of the historical foundations, not only of its faith, but even of its dogma, its creed. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a man born just a few years after the traditional date of the death of Christ, seemed to affirm in the eighteenth book of his Jewish Antiquities that 'Jesus called the Christ' did so many and such great miracles that one might hesitate to regard him as a man at all; that he taught the truth; that this true teaching of his was received with joy by multitudes both of Jews and Gentiles; that this Jesus was really the Christ, that is, the Messiah, expected by the Jews, for the thousands of wonderful things which he did and suffered exactly corresponded with what the inspired prophets had foretold of the expected redeemer of their people; that he was crucified by Pilate on the indictment of the Jewish leaders, but on the third day reappeared alive to his disciples, who consequently did not waver in their allegiance to him, the result being the survival, at the time of the witness Josephus, of the new race called Christians after the founder of their sect.

    Throughout the eleven long centuries which separate the edict of the toleration of Milan (312) from the disruption of the Occidental Church with the Protestant Reform -- in other words, the time lying between the Historia ecclesiastica of Eusebius and that of Cardinal Baronius -- not a doubt was cast on the authenticity of Josephus' precious Testimonium, which was constantly quoted and turned to good account by all Church historians.

Quote:The first Christian scholar who boldly declared the Testimonium a forgery was the Protestant jurist and philologist Hubert van Giffen (Giphanius), a native of Buren in the duchy of Gelders. Born in 1534, he held a law degree from the University of Orleans, where he founded a library for the use of Teutonic students. Later he was professor at Strassburg, Altdorf, and Ingolstadt, embraced Catholicism, and died at the court of Rudolph II of Hapsburg, in Prague, in 1604. His view on the famous Josephus passage [16] does not seem to appear anywhere in his printed works. It is probable that for the sake of his own safety he was satisfied with expressing it only in his letters and lectures.

    The oldest printed attack on the Testimonium is from the pen of the Lutheran theologian Lucas Osiander, who was born at Nuremberg in 1535, and who in his later life filled quite a number of Protestant ecclesiastical posts. Though anything but a Judaeophile, he was accused in certain circles of having Jewish ancestors. He frankly regarded the Josephus passage as spurious in its entirety [17].


Apologists love to claim that doubts about the TF are a modern "atheist" plot.  They lie a lot.

For the record, Eisler's reliance on the Slavonic translation of Josephus is usually dismissed by modern scholars.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#55

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 11:38 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Big Grin 

Enjoy.

http://www.josephus.org/eisler.htm

Quote:For fully 1200 years the church could boast of the sure and undisputed possession of an extremely remarkable testimony, pretiosissima et vix aestimabilis gemma [most precious and inestimable gem], as the old Viennese court librarian Petrus Lambeccius called it, a testimony rendered by an outsider to the truth of the historical foundations, not only of its faith, but even of its dogma, its creed. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a man born just a few years after the traditional date of the death of Christ, seemed to affirm in the eighteenth book of his Jewish Antiquities that 'Jesus called the Christ' did so many and such great miracles that one might hesitate to regard him as a man at all; that he taught the truth; that this true teaching of his was received with joy by multitudes both of Jews and Gentiles; that this Jesus was really the Christ, that is, the Messiah, expected by the Jews, for the thousands of wonderful things which he did and suffered exactly corresponded with what the inspired prophets had foretold of the expected redeemer of their people; that he was crucified by Pilate on the indictment of the Jewish leaders, but on the third day reappeared alive to his disciples, who consequently did not waver in their allegiance to him, the result being the survival, at the time of the witness Josephus, of the new race called Christians after the founder of their sect.

    Throughout the eleven long centuries which separate the edict of the toleration of Milan (312) from the disruption of the Occidental Church with the Protestant Reform -- in other words, the time lying between the Historia ecclesiastica of Eusebius and that of Cardinal Baronius -- not a doubt was cast on the authenticity of Josephus' precious Testimonium, which was constantly quoted and turned to good account by all Church historians.

Quote:The first Christian scholar who boldly declared the Testimonium a forgery was the Protestant jurist and philologist Hubert van Giffen (Giphanius), a native of Buren in the duchy of Gelders. Born in 1534, he held a law degree from the University of Orleans, where he founded a library for the use of Teutonic students. Later he was professor at Strassburg, Altdorf, and Ingolstadt, embraced Catholicism, and died at the court of Rudolph II of Hapsburg, in Prague, in 1604. His view on the famous Josephus passage [16] does not seem to appear anywhere in his printed works. It is probable that for the sake of his own safety he was satisfied with expressing it only in his letters and lectures.

    The oldest printed attack on the Testimonium is from the pen of the Lutheran theologian Lucas Osiander, who was born at Nuremberg in 1535, and who in his later life filled quite a number of Protestant ecclesiastical posts. Though anything but a Judaeophile, he was accused in certain circles of having Jewish ancestors. He frankly regarded the Josephus passage as spurious in its entirety [17].


Apologists love to claim that doubts about the TF are a modern "atheist" plot.  They lie a lot.

For the record, Eisler's reliance on the Slavonic translation of Josephus is usually dismissed by modern scholars.

And I bet they seldom spell "atheist" right, either, LOL!
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#56

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 11:23 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-24-2019, 11:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:HOWEVER,  there are apparently  no surviving MS of Josephus' work dating before the 11th century.


But that isn't the problem with it, Grymp.  Hell, the earliest manuscript we have for Justin's First Apology is from the 14th century.  (And yes, it has probably been tampered with.)  The problem with Josephus is that no other xtian writer mentions the TF before the 4th century.  Not a hint.  And then it suddenly appears in all its glory not the watered down version that modern jesus freaks insist is "authentic."  For a thousand years the church insisted that the TF was everything it claimed to be until it got too embarrassing!

You must understand that Josephus is important to them because without that fraud they have NOTHING.  And they can't stand the thought of having nothing.

Not my special area of study, so I'm looking forward to more information  ans sources about all of this.  I appreciate it.

I make no claims of being a biblical scholar, it's simply an area  of interest to me ,as is ancient Egypt. I lack the depth of knowledge to say argue with Free.  Also  unwilling to join the current bun fight between Free and others. I find the constant insults adolescent  and tedious.  .   
 
If you haven't read it, Erhman's  "Misquoting Jesus" is worth a glance.
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#57

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
I've read most of Ehrman's books and that one was first.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#58

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-25-2019, 01:23 AM)Minimalist Wrote: I've read most of Ehrman's books and that one was first.

 Have you read his "Lost  Christianities" ? I recently found it on my kindle .Can't remember reading it.  Opinion?
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#59

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Fascinating stuff.  In fact, not too long ago I posted an excerpt from it around here.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#60

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Here it is!

http://atheistdiscussion.org/forums/show...#pid145846
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#61

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-25-2019, 02:53 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Here it is!

http://atheistdiscussion.org/forums/show...#pid145846

 Fascinating stuff Min, thanks. 

Strangely enough, Erhman's view seems to fit [ broadly]  with  my current   read," Paul; The Mind of The Apostle" By A N Wilson .  


I've only read a bit over 20%, butI think I have the gist of his position.  Wilson takes a mythicist position :

He claims that  Jesus  and  Saul were first of all devout Jews,  and remained so until their deaths.  He claims that neither Jesus nor Paul intended to start a  new religion.  That Saul mythicised Jesus .

The mythicising of Jesus is a central theme for Wilson. He also makes the claim  that the writings of Saul were not meant to be history as we understand the word.  Rather, it was a mythology which contained spiritual teachings .  Wilson goes so  far as to compare Paul's epistles  with The Iliad . That is to say, a mythologised version of real events.

I mention the above as a matter of interest, not as a  position or argument.  I need to read a lot more of Wilson's book before deciding.   His position is certainly seductive, but I really don't yet have  enough information for an informed opinion.  Therefore, although interested in other opinions, I will not argue the point at this stage.
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#62

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Ehrman insists that there was a real jesus and he looks at the accumulated bullshit and decides he was an apocalyptic prophet. In this he is no different from Reza Aslan ( who thinks jesus was a zealot );J. D. Crossan, who thinks he was a Mediterranean Jewish peasant; Thiesen and Merz call him a "charismatic teacher,"; Eisenmann thinks he was a revolutionary.... and so on.

Virtually anyone who wants to write a book can find something to distinguish his particular jesus from all the others that are out there clogging up the marketplace.

What this tells me is that all of them are full of shit.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#63

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Echoes of jesus shit in 9 BC.  Hail Caesar - the Savior!

http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3255

Quote:The Priene Calendar Inscription is text inscribed on two stones found in the market-place in the old town of Priene, Asia Minor. It is dated around 9 BC.

The Priene Inscription is seen as a response to a letter by the consul/proconsul undefinedPaullus Fabius Maximus (d. AD 14) to the Provincial Assembly, recommending the lunar year be changed to the Julian calendar; the New Year commencing on the 23rd September to mark the birth of 'Augustus', and also to herald a new Era:

Quote:It seemed good to the Greeks of Asia, in the opinion of the high priest Apollonius of Menophilus Azanitus: ‘Since Providence, which has ordered all things and is deeply interested in our life, has set in most perfect order by giving us Augustus, whom she filled with virtue that he might benefit humankind, sending him as a saviour, both for us and for our descendants, that he might end war and arrange all things, and since he, Caesar, by his appearance (excelled even our anticipations), surpassing all previous benefactors, and not even leaving to posterity any hope of surpassing what he has done, and since the birthday of the god Augustus was the beginning of the good tidings for the world that came by reason of him which Asia resolved in Smyrna.

In the Greek inscription the word for good tidings is euangeli later translated into "gospel" in English. 

Once again it appears that these ideas were floating around the Greco-Roman world long before anyone dreamed up this jesus fucker.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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