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Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
#26

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Devil's advocate;

Absence of proof is NOT proof of absence. The best that can be said that absence is implied, and well be the case.

I'll repeat my own position, which I think is called "mythicist":

I first century Judea there were lots of wandering rabbis. I think it's 's likely there was a wandering rabbi with a name something like Yeshua bar Yusuf . That he upset the wrong people and was crucified by the Romans for sedition .This was such a common occurrence that nobody bothered to write about it. Literally thousands oF Jews were crucified in Judea during the Roman occupation.

Saul of Tarsus seems to have mythologised Yeshua, laying the foundations of a new faith, which became universally known as "Christianity from the fourth century ,thanks to the emperor Theodosius.

The resulting religion had little if anything to do with a poor little crucified rabbi perhaps called Yeshua bar Yusuf .

I have recently reached the conclusion that neither of the devout Jews, Yeshua or Saul intended to start a new religion. As I'm still reading about this claim, I may change my mind. Therefore, I'm not willing to argue the position at this stage. I mention it only as a matter of interest.
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#27

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Quote:Absence of proof is NOT proof of absence.

First off, you misstate the mantra which is "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."  Second, "proof" is generally used to be conclusive.  Oddly, there are plenty of innocent people sitting in jails because some lawyer thought he had sufficient proof of their guilt but nevermind that for the moment.

The phrase is used by Professor Kenneth Kitchen, a highly regarded Egyptologist and ( I try not to hold this against him ) an evangelical xtian.

https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/576312

Quote:Quotation

A phrase often used by Kitchen is "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" meaning that the lack of higher dated monuments or inscriptions for a certain Pharaoh's reign does not exclude the possibility that this ruler enjoyed a longer reign than is generally assumed.

Kitchen applied the idea to a fairly limited concept in Egyptology.  That has not stopped xhristards from latching on to it and using it to defend any stupid idea they put out about their godboy and his alleged followers. 

So when we point out that there is no contemporary evidence that their godboy existed in the early first century you can count on some xhristard to come along and shriek "ARGUMENT FROM SILENCE" at the top of his/her lungs as if that, alone, means that their bullshit is true. 

Kitchen, as a reputable and published scholar would never have suggested that nothing be written until all facts had been uncovered otherwise he would have never written any books at all.  We can never be certain when all facts have been uncovered.  But we certainly can hypothesize based on the evidence we have or do not have.  The only caution is that we must be prepared to evaluate any new evidence which is presented in an objective manner.

Somehow, xhristards never present any new evidence.  All they have is the same old shit.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#28

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 01:25 AM)grympy Wrote: Devil's advocate;

Absence of proof is NOT proof of absence.  The best that can be said that absence is  implied, and well be the case.  

I'll repeat my own position, which I think is called "mythicist":

I first century Judea there were lots of wandering rabbis.  I think it's 's likely there was a wandering rabbi with a name something like Yeshua bar Yusuf . That he upset the wrong people and was crucified by the Romans for sedition .This was such a common occurrence that nobody bothered to write about it. Literally thousands oF Jews were crucified in  Judea during the Roman occupation.

Saul of Tarsus seems to have mythologised Yeshua, laying the foundations of a new faith, which became universally known as  "Christianity  from the fourth century ,thanks to the  emperor Theodosius.

The resulting religion had little if anything to do with a poor little crucified  rabbi  perhaps called Yeshua bar Yusuf .

I have recently reached the conclusion that neither of the devout  Jews,  Yeshua or Saul  intended  to start a new religion.  As I'm still reading about this claim,  I may change my mind.  Therefore, I'm not willing to argue the position at this stage. I mention it only as a matter of interest.

Both Paul and Jesus, (if they existed) are presented as apocalyptic Jews, who both thought the end-times were immanent. 
Why start a new religion if the end was upon them ? 

The name "Yeshua" (in addition to a "christ") itself means "to deliver" or "to rescue", based on the "Joshua" figure in Hebrew lore. 
There was not only "possibly" a Yeshua, there were a whole bunch of them, including a Jesus Barrabas in the Gospel of Mark, (which Origen said "had" to be a mistake, as "Jesus was a *holy* name ... so "poof" it disappears from Mark). In fact there were so many Jesuses ("saviors") it seems virtually impossible to keep them straight. Pilate seems to have a lot of Jesuses in his little prison. LOL

Josephus mentions no less than 19 Yeshuas. 4 were High Priests, Jesus ben PhiabiJesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus, and Jesus ben Gamaliel

There was a Jesus ben Sirach, Jesus ben Pandira, Jesus ben Ananias. Beginning in 62 AD, this Jesus had caused disquiet in Jerusalem with a non-stop doom-laden mantra of ‘Woe to the city’. He preached :
[i]"A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against the whole people."[/i]
– Josephus, [i]Wars 6[/i].3.

(Interesting parallels to the Jesus of the Christians !)

There was a Jesus ben Ananias, Jesus ben Saphat, a rebel leader in 68 AD and led rebels in Tiberias' ("the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people" – Josephus, Life 12.66). When the city was about to fall to Vespasian he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee. Jesus ben Gamala. During 68/69 AD this Jesus was a leader of the ‘peace party’ in the civil war wrecking Judaea. From the walls of Jerusalem he had remonstrated with the besieging Idumeans (led by ‘James and John, sons of Susa’). 

Jesus ben Thebuth. A priest who, in 69 AD, gave away the treasures of the Temple, which included two holy candlesticks, goblets of pure gold, sacred curtains and robes of the high priests. The booty figured prominently in the Triumph held for Vespasian and his son Titus.

Jesus ben Stada was a Judean agitator who gave the Romans a headache in the early years of the second century. He died twenty five miles from Jerusalem at the hands of a Roman crucifixion crew. 

How in hell would anyone know who or what anyone talking about a savior or Jesus was even talking about, and how could they keep them all straight ?  
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#29

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 12:23 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: Did any of these contemporaries of Jesus have anything to say about him?

Persius 34-62 BCE
Petronius 27-66 BCE
Philo 20-50 BCE
Marcus Clavius Rufus 11-71 BCE
Columella 4-70 BCE
<Snip>

My highlights.

Good weed that Bagend grass. Tongue
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#30

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
No Roman writer mentions anyone named "jesus" until Celsus in the late 2d century CE.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#31

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Quote:(Interesting parallels to the Jesus of the Christians !)


An even more interesting parallel is that jesus' trial before Albinus.

Quote:However certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his; and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes. Yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him: but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man; brought him to the Roman procurator. Where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare. Yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears: but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem.” And when Albinus, (for he was then our procuratorWink asked him, “Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words?” he made no manner of reply to what he said: but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty: till Albinus took him to be a mad-man, and dismissed him.


Sounds a lot like the early version in "mark."  Except Albinus was not portrayed as a pussy who listened to a crowd!
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#32

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 01:58 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Absence of proof is NOT proof of absence.

The phrase is used by Professor Kenneth Kitchen, a highly regarded Egyptologist and ( I try not to hold this against him ) an evangelical xtian. quote]


Somehow, xhristards never present any new evidence.  All they have is the same old shit.

In my experience, christians and other theists never have rational arguments.  I would welcome one just to show it wrong.  But they don't ever seem to be able to present facts and indeed seem to live on mythology.
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#33

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 04:09 AM)Inkubus Wrote:
(09-24-2019, 12:23 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: Did any of these contemporaries of Jesus have anything to say about him?

Persius 34-62 BCE
Petronius 27-66 BCE
Philo 20-50 BCE
Marcus Clavius Rufus 11-71 BCE
Columella 4-70 BCE
<Snip>

My highlights.

Good weed that Bagend grass. Tongue

The point being that some Christian apologists try to make the claim that Jesus was actually born a decade or two (or maybe even earlier) before the Common Era.
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#34

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
If Jesus was divine, all of this matters. If Jesus was not divine, none of this matters. When you take the divine away, your conclusions right or wrong no longer matter. Jesus historicism is a hobby, not an argument.
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#35

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 12:49 PM)Dānu Wrote: If Jesus was divine, all of this matters.  If Jesus was not divine, none of this matters.  When you take the divine away, your conclusions right or wrong no longer matter.  Jesus historicism is a hobby, not an argument.

Precisely why the Apocrypha was not included in the bible.
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#36

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 12:49 PM)Dānu Wrote: If Jesus was divine, all of this matters. If Jesus was not divine, none of this matters. When you take the divine away, your conclusions right or wrong no longer matter. Jesus historicism is a hobby, not an argument.

Well, logically. it does matter more to christians than it does to me. But they are OBSESSED with the divinity of Jesus and I merely find the whole idea silly.
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#37

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 01:41 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-24-2019, 12:49 PM)Dānu Wrote: If Jesus was divine, all of this matters. If Jesus was not divine, none of this matters. When you take the divine away, your conclusions right or wrong no longer matter. Jesus historicism is a hobby, not an argument.

Well, logically. it does matter more to christians than it does to me. But they are OBSESSED with the divinity of Jesus and I merely find the whole idea silly.

And Jim Jones and David Koresh mattered to their followers, as do the Hindu Gods to the the millions of Hindus, Mohammed to the Muslims, and all the founders of crazy-ass religions in the world matter to their followers. If Jesusism is just another crazy but false religion, that it matters to Christians is a mental health issue, not a concern for others. What's your point?
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#38

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 06:59 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-24-2019, 01:58 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Absence of proof is NOT proof of absence.

The phrase is used by Professor Kenneth Kitchen, a highly regarded Egyptologist and ( I try not to hold this against him ) an evangelical xtian. quote]


Somehow, xhristards never present any new evidence.  All they have is the same old shit.

In my experience, christians and other theists never have rational arguments.  I would welcome one just to show it wrong.  But they don't ever seem to be able to present facts and indeed seem to live on mythology.

Yes but even when they have a fact they misuse it.  Now in this the bulk of them are misled by preachers because they are trained to listen to those fools.  For example, the claim that there are more manuscripts attesting to jesus than any other figure in history.  On the basis of raw numbers that is true.  It is also true that most of those manuscripts date from the 8-10th centuries and are merely copies.  It is as if you wrote "The Giants won the Super Bowl" on a piece of paper and then took it to Kinkos and made 5,000 copies.  So what?  They don't ever want to hear the "so what!"
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#39

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-22-2019, 02:33 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Um, no.

Forgeries by later xhristards are not "non-christian" evidence.

It is, in fact, just a jesus freak wet dream.

But surely we have discussed this before.

If you mean that in the sense that there was no real Jesus son of god, I agree. There was no such person...
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#40

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Actually, that was a reference to the claim in the original video about Josephus and his so-called Testimoniam Flavianum.

It's a 4th century interpolation.

The current "historical jesus" crowd just insists that part of it is real because, you know, jesus is "special."

That in spite of the fact that we know the first attempt to reconstruct that nonsense came in 1929 by Robert Eisler.

But that doesn't even slow them down in the insistence that their godboy was "real."

As noted above, jesus sans miracles is just some asshole who got himself killed.  Big deal.  Not even a good story.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#41

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 05:49 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Actually, that was a reference to the claim in the original video about Josephus and his so-called Testimoniam Flavianum.

It's a 4th century interpolation.

The current "historical jesus" crowd just insists that part of it is real because, you know, jesus is "special."

That in spite of the fact that we know the first attempt to reconstruct that nonsense came in 1929 by Robert Eisler.

But that doesn't even slow them down in the insistence that their godboy was "real."

As noted above, jesus sans miracles is just some asshole who got himself killed.  Big deal.  Not even a good story.

My favorite musical is "Jesus Christ Superstar". It made some sense to me as Jesus as a human when I was in college. OK, so I'm not perfect. But I had it down so perfectly as a musical that I got free dinners by always knowing the next line. I was so broke in college that any way to get free food from suckers was good. I also played chess for dining hall tickets (I USED to be good at it). There was a time when I ate "Hamburger Helper" without hamburger.
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#42

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Quote:My favorite musical is "Jesus Christ Superstar".


I know what you mean.  Catchy music!

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#43

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 12:23 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: Did any of these contemporaries of Jesus have anything to say about him?

Persius 34-62 BCE
Petronius 27-66 BCE
Philo 20-50 BCE
Marcus Clavius Rufus 11-71 BCE
Columella 4-70 BCE
Florius Lucius 5 BCE-55 CE
Geminus 10 BCE-50 CE
Phaedrus 15 BCE-50 CE
Titus Livius 59 BCE-17 CE
Marcus Paterculus 19 BCE-31 CE
Pomponius Mela 15 BCE-45 CE
Valerius Maximus 10BCE-57 CE
Lucius Seneca 4-65 CE
Hero of Alexandria 10-70 CE
Appolonius of Tyrana 15-106 CE
Musonius Rufus 20-101 CE
Pliny the Elder 23-79 CE
Silius Italicus 28-101 CE
Quintillian 35-100 CE
Martial 38-102 CE

Great list. I wish I THAT last time the theists banged on my door!
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#44

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
Lucian of Samosata - a town in SE Turkey near the Syrian border - wrote in "The Passing of Peregrinus"

Quote:11.    “It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in Palestine.   And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He inter preted and explained some of their books and even composed many, and they revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.


So, Lucian, despite living in the heart of the region where jesusism allegedly arose, and writing right around 160 AD STILL did not know the name "jesus" and instead refers to him in that convoluted manner. 

So perhaps the question should be "when was the historical jesus invented?"
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#45

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
A human matching the description may have very well existed, it was not a divine being in any way, shape, or form.
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#46

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
"May have?"  Yes.

"Must have?"   No.

A human jesus is no more necessary than a human Osiris was.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#47

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 08:50 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Lucian of Samosata - a town in SE Turkey near the Syrian border - wrote in "The Passing of Peregrinus"

Quote:11.    “It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in Palestine.   And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He inter preted and explained some of their books and even composed many, and they revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.


So, Lucian, despite living in the heart of the region where jesusism allegedly arose, and writing right around 160 AD STILL did not know the name "jesus" and instead refers to him in that convoluted manner. 

So perhaps the question should be "when was the historical jesus invented?"

I kind of assume there was some human who called about the religion. A jewish guy. It was a job... There were many.
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#48

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
3 types of bullshit have emerged from the angry desert god cult.

In two of them, "god" utilized a human spokesman who was not a god or even a demigod by himself.  Moses and mohammed are mere conduits.

This "jesus" guy is the outlier.  It was a marketing ploy to claim that he was fucking god, too.
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#49

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 09:11 PM)Minimalist Wrote: 3 types of bullshit have emerged from the angry desert god cult.

In two of them, "god" utilized a human spokesman who was not a god or even a demigod by himself.  Moses and mohammed are mere conduits.

This "jesus" guy is the outlier.  It was a marketing ploy to claim that he was fucking god, too.

Yeah. I thought that was obvious. Though Jews and Moslems might disagree for different reasons. The Jews are still waiting. But IIRC, Mohammed was chosen by God through some angel. Both Jesus and Mohammed were pretty much the same (chosen by a deity). Yeah, the christians made the choice more "wombly" but that's splitting hairs.
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#50

Non-Christian evidence that Jesus existed?
(09-24-2019, 05:29 AM)Minimalist Wrote: No Roman writer mentions anyone named "jesus" until Celsus in the late 2d century CE.

I think the writings of Flavius Josephus (37-100CE) ,the Romanised  Jew, counts as Roman  source. He wrote extensively about Christians.   However, I've always  thought of Josephus as a  Roman apologist., and  have not given his writings much credence .  Was I wrong to be so dismissive? 

HOWEVER,  there are apparently  no surviving MS of Josephus' work dating before the 11th century. 

I found the bit below interesting, but have no idea  how reliable., Josephus was born after the putative death of Jesus, so is not a contemporary source.

"The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum.[1][4][5] Almost all modern scholars reject the authenticity of this passage in its present form, while the majority of scholars nevertheless hold that it contains an authentic nucleus referencing the execution of Jesus by Pilate, which was then subject to Christian interpolation and/or alteration.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] The exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear, however.[12][13]  "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
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