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Are human beings inherently selfish?
#26

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 06:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 03:22 AM)Free Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 02:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: It's neither selfish or unselfish. Acts which help preserve the group are what we evolved to do. 
"Selfish" is a concept that does not apply.

I think I get the gist of what you are trying to say. You are basically saying, 

"Give me a better word than 'selfish.'"

Involuntarily Compelled?

Although I don't think self preservation is the result of evolution, but rather the contrary. Evolution is the result of self preservation.

Those who were strong enough and possessed the traits needed to survive, ... lived and produced off-spring with similar traits. It's very much the result of evolution.

An argument could be made that in an effort to survive, a life form would need to adapt to its environment. This is essence of evolution; adaptation. Therefore, by necessity the need to adapt to the environment must spawn from a pre-existing condition before the very first thing evolved; the need for self preservation. If there was no rudimentary instinct to survive, what then motivates the lifeform to adapt/evolve?
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#27

Are human beings inherently selfish?
Perhaps the question should be, "Are our perceptions inherently self-serving?" The answer to that seems obvious enough.
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#28

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 06:31 PM)Free Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 06:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 03:22 AM)Free Wrote: I think I get the gist of what you are trying to say. You are basically saying, 

"Give me a better word than 'selfish.'"

Involuntarily Compelled?

Although I don't think self preservation is the result of evolution, but rather the contrary. Evolution is the result of self preservation.

Those who were strong enough and possessed the traits needed to survive, ... lived and produced off-spring with similar traits. It's very much the result of evolution.

An argument could be made that in an effort to survive, a life form would need to adapt to its environment. This is essence of evolution; adaptation. Therefore, by necessity the need to adapt to the environment must spawn from a pre-existing condition before the very first thing evolved; the need for self preservation. If there was no rudimentary instinct to survive, what then motivates the lifeform to adapt/evolve?

Nope. Not at all. The ability to adapt (originally) would be a random mutation. It doesn't need to come from anything. Apparently you don't know how evolution works.
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#29

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 07:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 06:31 PM)Free Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 06:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Those who were strong enough and possessed the traits needed to survive, ... lived and produced off-spring with similar traits. It's very much the result of evolution.

An argument could be made that in an effort to survive, a life form would need to adapt to its environment. This is essence of evolution; adaptation. Therefore, by necessity the need to adapt to the environment must spawn from a pre-existing condition before the very first thing evolved; the need for self preservation. If there was no rudimentary instinct to survive, what then motivates the lifeform to adapt/evolve?

Nope. Not at all. The ability to adapt (originally) would be a random mutation. It doesn't need to come from anything. Apparently you don't know how evolution works.

The ability to adapt, yes. But what prompts the desire?
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#30

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 01:01 PM)Dānu Wrote: It depends on what one means by selfish.

Humans are definitely self-interested, we wouldn't be here if we weren't. But the term selfish seems to have connotations that self-interested does not, and I'd need to know what I'm signing onto first. Like the thread on stubborness, there appear to be 'innocent' ways of conceiving these traits, and ways which invite stigma. It seems a tailor made situation for misunderstandings based upon equivocation between the various connotations.

Most humans are unreflective and equivocate on many topics without realizing it. It's the default until you begin analysis.

I think equivocation is as fundamental a mistake as contradiction. Contradiciton is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole but failing because it simply doesn't fit ... whereas equivocation is like shoving a smaller square peg into a larger rectangular hole and mistakingly thinking it's a perfect fit when it isn't.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#31

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 09:03 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Most humans are unreflective and equivocate on many topics without realizing it. It's the default until you begin analysis. 

I think equivocation is as fundamental a mistake as contradiction. Contradiciton is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole but failing because it simply doesn't fit ... whereas equivocation is like shoving a smaller square peg into a larger rectangular hole and mistakingly thinking it's a perfect fit when it isn't.

And of course you are special, and not one of the masses of the stupid, over which you , of course, are FAR superior. 
Snort.
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#32

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 08:33 PM)Free Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 07:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 06:31 PM)Free Wrote: An argument could be made that in an effort to survive, a life form would need to adapt to its environment. This is essence of evolution; adaptation. Therefore, by necessity the need to adapt to the environment must spawn from a pre-existing condition before the very first thing evolved; the need for self preservation. If there was no rudimentary instinct to survive, what then motivates the lifeform to adapt/evolve?

Nope. Not at all. The ability to adapt (originally) would be a random mutation. It doesn't need to come from anything. Apparently you don't know how evolution works.

The ability to adapt, yes. But what prompts the desire?

 Oh dear, the issue of perception-thought-action, which leads to the free will/ determinism dichotomy. I've never agreed with that  model  .I think perhaps we are driven by instinct and habit, mostly. That little, if any of our behaviour is  the result of conscious  thought or reflection. That the 'desire'  may be distinctive or the result of learned behaviour. Or not.

This is  a  basic metaphysical  question .Don't want to get into a debate here . Been there , done that,  over a 40 year period. Don't do it any more.  I've never been able to fully accept any position, and thinking about it gives me a headache
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#33

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 11:22 PM)grympy Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 08:33 PM)Free Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 07:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Nope. Not at all. The ability to adapt (originally) would be a random mutation. It doesn't need to come from anything. Apparently you don't know how evolution works.

The ability to adapt, yes. But what prompts the desire?

 Oh dear, the issue of perception-thought-action, which leads to the free will/ determinism dichotomy. I've never agreed with that  model  .I think perhaps we are driven by instinct and habit, mostly. That little, if any of our behaviour is  the result of conscious  thought or reflection. That the 'desire'  may be distinctive or the result of learned behaviour. Or not.

This is  a  basic metaphysical  question .Don't want to get into a debate here . Been there , done that,  over a 40 year period. Don't do it any more.  I've never been able to fully accept any position, and thinking about it gives me a headache

Meh ... I long ago simply accepted the order from chaos position. It really all comes down to what we want to believe, doesn't it? If the universe had an origin, then we have only determinism. If it never had an origin, then we have chaos of which determinism can emerge from.

Pick one and stand your ground and come out with both guns a-blazing. lol
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#34

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 09:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 09:03 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Most humans are unreflective and equivocate on many topics without realizing it. It's the default until you begin analysis. 

I think equivocation is as fundamental a mistake as contradiction. Contradiciton is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole but failing because it simply doesn't fit ... whereas equivocation is like shoving a smaller square peg into a larger rectangular hole and mistakingly thinking it's a perfect fit when it isn't.

And of course you are special, and not one of the masses of the stupid, over which you , of course, are FAR superior. 
Snort.

You are clearly amongst the stupid masses, lol. It takes one to know one—other smart people recognize the smart people ... hence why you "snort" at the idea of me being smart. Because you're a dumbfuck.

And, yes, there are people in the world who are above average intelligence. ... that's what being above average means. Obviously the average is average.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#35

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 09:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 09:03 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Most humans are unreflective and equivocate on many topics without realizing it. It's the default until you begin analysis. 

I think equivocation is as fundamental a mistake as contradiction. Contradiciton is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole but failing because it simply doesn't fit ... whereas equivocation is like shoving a smaller square peg into a larger rectangular hole and mistakingly thinking it's a perfect fit when it isn't.

And of course you are special, and not one of the masses of the stupid, over which you , of course, are FAR superior. 
Snort.

Plus, to follow up on this ... did you not notice how I said that most humans are unreflective because it's the default until you begin analysis? Are you snorting at the idea of me having done lots of analysis? Fucking stupid considering you don't even know me lol. I'm an extremely analytical person and I think through lots of philosophy that a lot of people aren't even interested in.

And last I checked you're one of those people who dislikes philosophy? Is that right? If so then OBVIOUSLY you're amongst the unreflective. Philosophical = reflective. Unphilosophical = unreflective. Even the bad philosophers at least tried to be reflective ... unlike the plebs. You're just a pleb. One of the shitwits.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#36

Are human beings inherently selfish?
P.P.S. With regards to my openly admitting my own above averageness:

[Image: quote-with-people-of-limited-ability-mod...-19-30.jpg]

[Image: 210456-Arthur-Schopenhauer-Quote-No-doub...virtue.jpg]

I'm not going to disingenuously pretend to not know I'm smart, self-reflective and analytical. Genuine honesty is more important than false modesty.

P.P.P.S. Bucky Ball is a fool and it's plainly evident to some of us.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#37

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 09:52 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: And last I checked you're one of those people who dislikes philosophy? Is that right? If so then OBVIOUSLY you're amongst the unreflective. Philosophical = reflective. Unphilosophical = unreflective. Even the bad philosophers at least tried to be reflective ... unlike the plebs. You're just a pleb. One of the shitwits.

Too many bad philosophers cause more confusions than they solve, like spreading the idea that philosophy somehow trumps science or even ordinary observations.

You miss the point that even ordinary people are smart about some things and dumb about others.  That's why they often avoid areas which are out of their depth, unlike people who mistakenly think they are smart about everything.  You also miss the point that there are degrees of understanding of any given topic.  Understanding is not all or nothing, so there's always more to learn.

So arrogance = ignorance, in my opinion.
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#38

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 09:50 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: And, yes, there are people in the world who are above average intelligence. ... that's what being above average means. Obviously the average is average.

And of course you are among the special smart ones.
What an idiot.
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#39

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 02:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: And of course you are among the special smart ones.
What an idiot.

Be careful there, dude.
Intelligence isn't just what you perceive it to be or what you can provide with your limited intelligence.
Yes, we're all limited in our intelligence in some way, even though we may be intelligent in another way.
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#40

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 06:31 PM)Free Wrote: If there was no rudimentary instinct to survive, what then motivates the lifeform to adapt/evolve?

Nothing motivates any living creature to evolve. Natural selection prunes the ones whose phenotypical expression is not sufficient to keep them alive long enough to reproduce.
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#41

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 06:31 PM)Free Wrote: If there was no rudimentary instinct to survive, what then motivates the lifeform to adapt/evolve?

You play a good game in those mythicist threads, but you really are just a clueless theist.
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#42

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-19-2019, 08:33 PM)Free Wrote: The ability to adapt, yes. But what prompts the desire?

Nothing. Lamarckism has long been discredited.
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#43

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 10:00 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: P.P.S. With regards to my openly admitting my own above averageness:

[Image: quote-with-people-of-limited-ability-mod...-19-30.jpg]

[Image: 210456-Arthur-Schopenhauer-Quote-No-doub...virtue.jpg]

I'm not going to disingenuously pretend to not know I'm smart, self-reflective and analytical. Genuine honesty is more important than false modesty.

P.P.P.S. Bucky Ball is a fool and it's plainly evident to some of us.

Self proclaimed genius, too rich!
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#44

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 09:52 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Philosophical = reflective. Unphilosophical = unreflective.

Seems like either you're 1) equivocating two different connotations of "philosophical", or 2) serving up some self-serving bullshit. 

Perhaps if you left your bedroom you'd find out that there are plenty of reflective people who recognize most philosophy for the horseshit that it is.
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#45

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 02:10 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 06:31 PM)Free Wrote: If there was no rudimentary instinct to survive, what then motivates the lifeform to adapt/evolve?

Nothing motivates any living creature to evolve. Natural selection prunes the ones whose phenotypical expression is not sufficient to keep them alive long enough to reproduce.

I don't see how this actually answers my question. Although natural selection prunes the ones whose phenotypical expression is not sufficient to keep them alive long enough to reproduce, the ones that do survive long enough to produce do indeed evolve.

Do they evolve because they need to? Why do they need to?
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#46

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 02:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 06:31 PM)Free Wrote: If there was no rudimentary instinct to survive, what then motivates the lifeform to adapt/evolve?

You play a good game in those mythicist threads, but you really are just a clueless theist.

I am not a theist.

Personally, I have concluded you yourself a true believer from that thread. You support ideas about Jesus that are more implauisble than the Christian belief system.

I see no distinction between you and a theist. None at all. Both are intellectually decrepit. 

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#47

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 02:41 PM)Free Wrote: I don't see how this actually answers my question. Although natural selection prunes the ones whose phenotypical expression is not sufficient to keep them alive long enough to reproduce, the ones that do survive long enough to produce do indeed evolve.

Do they evolve because they need to? Why do they need to?

Evolution is the natural selection of "you need to go".
There are hangers-on, those too dumb to know any better, of course.
When it comes to the gene pool, there's going to be a selection.
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#48

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 02:46 PM)Free Wrote: I am not a theist.

Personally, I have concluded you yourself a true believer from that thread. You support ideas about Jesus that are more implauisble than the Christian belief system.

I see no distinction between you and a theist. None at all. Both are intellectually decrepit. 

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You'd certainly make a cute pet.
*pats your head*
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#49

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 02:47 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(08-20-2019, 02:41 PM)Free Wrote: I don't see how this actually answers my question. Although natural selection prunes the ones whose phenotypical expression is not sufficient to keep them alive long enough to reproduce, the ones that do survive long enough to produce do indeed evolve.

Do they evolve because they need to? Why do they need to?

Evolution is the natural selection of "you need to go".
There are hangers-on, those too dumb to know any better, of course.
When it comes to the gene pool, there's going to be a selection.

That still doesn't answer my question.
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#50

Are human beings inherently selfish?
(08-20-2019, 02:49 PM)Free Wrote: That still doesn't answer my question.

Then that's a "you" problem, because I answered it. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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