The "myth" of the dying church

[Fireball]

Drippy's over here because he's had his ass so thoroughly handed to him over at AF.org. He's not going to admit that, though. I want to know who invited that turd into this punch bowl?   It gives me more to ignore, I guess. 

[mordant]

Interesting grasping at straws here by an evangelical remarking on the "supposed demise" of the church, the rise of the nones, etc.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/...ng-church/

What he's spectacularly wrong about is that followers of what he labels "liberal theology" are less spiritual or religious. That's utter rubbish, theologians like John Shelby Spong are deeply religious. Clearly he feels threatened by the liberal churches, this isn't that surprising really given the fact that they give people in conservative churches the positive framework to replace their dated dogmatic fundamentalist theology, and strip the church of its power and control over people.

Fundamentalists are all about being right, rather than being good. They cannot relate to what they see as a lot of moral relativism that a more loosely-held faith necessarily must entail, or so goes their thinking. Liberal Christians, they feel, tolerate too much, doubt too much, overlook too much, and thus do not fulfill their role of preserving society from progressing in its debauchery.

They're wrong, of course, as you point out. But I have to confess, even when I deconverted from fundamentalism, it took me a long time to see the point of liberal Christianity, as I could not see that it stood for anything. Eventually I figured out that there are things to spirituality other than dogma. But it took me a long time to get some distance from that mindset.

[Minimalist]

Drippy's over here because he's had his ass so thoroughly handed to him over at AF.org. He's not going to admit that, though. I want to know who invited that turd into this punch bowl?   It gives me more to ignore, I guess. 

Shit.  That happened on a daily basis.

[SYZ]

As it stands 74% in the US belong to the church.   74% of 350ish million people belong to God in some form or fashion of their own choosing.  And 6% represent the 'others.'

Your term "belong" to the church is a very rubbery figure, and sounds very much like your own estimation.
The PRRI (Public Religion Research Institute) which is a non-profit, non-partisan organisation dedicated to
conducting independent research at the intersection of religion, culture, and public policy, reports the
following statistics:

•  Many Christians, and unbelievers, exaggerate about attending worship in phone interviews. However, when asked in an anonymous online questionnaire, they'll answer more realistically.

•  On the phone, 36% of Americans report attending religious services weekly or more, while 30% say they seldom or never go.

•  Online, a smaller share, only 31% of people surveyed, said they attended church at least weekly, while 43%  admitted they seldom or never go.

•  Actual church attendance was about half the rate indicated by national public opinion polls.

•  On the phone interviews,  91% of the "nones" said they seldom or never attend church.

I do not see the church dying.

Then what you see is obviously being misinterpreted.  Here in Australia—now defined as a nominally
secular country—98% of respondents, in our first Federal census of 1901, described themselves as
"Christian".  In the last 2016 census, only 52% of the population defined themselves as Christian,
with 31% defining themselves as "Nones" or "Atheists".

Atheists now outnumber the combined totals of Catholics and Anglicans in Australia.

When things are good people sleep in on Sunday... when things are tight and you need a job or better one to make ends meet then the church is standing room only.

Nope.  The churches (in Australia) are never "standing room" only, and haven't been for probably
25 or 30 years.  Amongst church congregations now, you'll invariably find an ocean of grey hair. And
only 12% of 18-34 year-olds defined themselves as Christian.

Admittedly, it's taken a long time, but at last an intellectually-savvy first-world population has come
to acknowledge the truth, the authenticity and logic of the sciences, rather than the fiction, fantasy and
fears of religious dogma.

[Finite Monkeys]

Hey @Drich

This is the current state of religiosity in Britain (July 2019) -



From here.

Britain has continued its long-term trend towards being less and less religious, with the number of people saying they belong to no religion growing from two in five (43%) to a more than half (52%) over the last decade.

It also finds two-thirds saying they never attend religious services, just 31% describing themselves as religious, half saying they never pray, and 44% expressing atheist or agnostic beliefs. 35% think religious organisations have too much power, with only 5% taking the opposite view.

Hopefully that kind of scenario is in the near future for the USA too.

[Drich]

Those are your rags, dumbass.  Only religitards are upset that their power is diminishing.

I say "BRING IT ON."

The sooner you clowns vanish the better off we'll all be.

It does not matter who's they are they represent not fact but opinion.. my point is FACTS like the US census trumps anything these nutters have to say. no matter which side of the fence they stand on. because again they could only be looking at the church from a historic perspective. have a typical church typical building and typical worship and could be counting this as the only way a church can work, but again I point out where two or more are gather talking about God/christ according to Christ himself that is a church.

So again, does your christian raggers consider what we do here a church open 24/7? 

In fact you are one of the most dedicated church goers I know! 8 hours a day 7 days a week with 10's of thousands of posts/contributions to the subject of God.

again, not the typical church but a church none the less. that 75% who self identify as christians do so not always because they fit the traditional model but because they connect with God on some level. Your writters are only concerned with the tradition way of counting members.

[Drich]

That's exactly what they said in the U.K., till census after census saw the results and attendance drop and drop year after year.

There is a certain truth to what you say about ebb and flow from religion as times are good and bad, but the number of people ebbing back towards christianity is declining rapidly.

which again is why I started with this should be an easy thing to determine after the 2020 census... Not to mention there was never any mega churches in england like here. meaning churches that seat 10k people or more. I'm sure there are several churches in england that will accommodate 2000 or more which is the min requirement.. however Mega churches here in the US are still growing and poping up everywhere. and again what looks liked failed neighbrhood churches are really the result of the massive congergation sucking up members from every denomination.

I've been to one they are great and there is no hassle you can just be a member of the crowd and disappear if that is what you want. Lots of them are set up like coffee shops with free everything then lounge areas and going to church is like going to a theatrical event now. The bands play on a professional level often times will host a literal recording artist as art director, (of the churches near me was originally seeded/built by the good olde benny hinn (super televangelist) so it seats several thousand maybe 10 (looks like a massive ware house complex) the preacher now is some woman how happens to be married to the keyboard guy in Journey! who happens to be the music program director.) they rock out to jesus tunes but also have other music as well and special concerts and the like for members only. The church I went to pastor son was the hottest christian recording artist in the last 10 years and he too was a program director.. the cool thing there was he was a songwriter as well and out church where singing his hit songs before they came on the radio.. then they have broadway style plays every week or ever other week. I honestly do not know how they manage all of this stuff.

All i'm pointing out is just because the church does not look like you remember does not mean it is dead especially considering the numbers.

You miss the point, less and less people are identifying as christian period.

where are these numbers posted. I quoted the US census. what other numbers do you have?

mega churches are a sign of the decline of christianity, a huddling together in big groups instead of feeling comfortable in a smaller community, we had the same here people huddling in large and larger congregations (churches joining each other) which at the time was seem as a good cross denominational  exercise.

  Really?!?!?
I being a member of a mega church at one point thought I explained why people liked them better? You walk into a free starbucks.. get your coffee how ever you like free get a donut or pastry free Sit in a nice wifi coffee shop/lounge till services where you are being entertained by literal rock stars in some cases (again my example wrote the majority of Dont stop believin by journey) This is the music director at that church. Then access to small venue events like 2 or three guys from journey and the church band play an unplugged concert. 

Then a play or some sort of video production which is the primary sermon and then a 10 or 15 min speech, and then you exit to a free brunch!

Now this is done every week. The small 3 hour neighborhood preacher has little to nothing to offer an entertainment based audience. That is why people are moving in droves.


Again from a member, and not someone who has never gone to church (you) like this.

The church of england failed because people are not stupid. God left along time ago if he was ever there. all one need understand is basic english history and can see how the church Got it's start. from then on it was doomed as it operated as a branch of the kingdom.

You are comparing a traditional allegiance to a forced religion, to something people want to do because they are fed entertained and get a good dose of God. Apples and oranges.

But year on year after shining big and bright for a while they started to decline, some getting even bigger memberships, but overall the number of christians declining.  I suspect the same will happen in the U.S. too, in fact that's what survey after survey shows.

It's been 40 years since the first modern mega church (some people point back to 1955 but that church did not seat over 10k) the one in 84 did, and not only that the articles I posted only point to growth. what are you referencing? where do you get your stats?

It has the appearance of revival because there is lots of noise and light, it's a sure sign that christians have lost their confidence, and need more and more injects of 'praise noise and constant encouragement, hardly a people confident in their relationship with a god.

even with mega churches in full swing I do not count that as a revival. it is again just the normal possible a slight decline as the church runs it's normal course of ebb and flow.

[Drich]

Q: How many people go to church each Sunday?
A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend. 
As added proof for the accuracy of this smaller percentage of churchgoers, if 20.4% of Americans (approximately 63 million in 2010) attended the nation's 350,000 congregations weekly then the average attendance would be 180 people per congregation which is almost exactly the figure that numerous research studies have found.

here's a source, Drich.
Let's see yours
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfac...tml#attend

read the source there 'king' then re-read what I wrote.

Again some people count only traditional church attendance (go to church twice on sunday and once on wednesday as being a member.) what was my answer to this? Repeated it again to minnie just now.

Then I pointed back to the US census that says 75% of American self identify as christian despite low attendance. and then gave a list of modern examples of church attendance that do not fit the tight gallup poll definition. Albeit it fits the definition Christ himself gave... so as a christian we will be going with His defination and not some BI-ASSED poll.

[Drich]

Drippy's over here because he's had his ass so thoroughly handed to him over at AF.org. He's not going to admit that, though. I want to know who invited that turd into this punch bowl?   It gives me more to ignore, I guess. 

I'm here because it is literally silent over there. I guess that is what happens when you have your questions answered. you leave and find another place to play pretend the contradictions you have for leaving the church remain unanswered.  I would gladly go back if and when the atheists over there posted some questions they could ask and factually discuss if they wanted to counter.

[Drich]

Do you guys understand how data is sourced and how it is rated?

Primary, secondary, tertiary source materials?

The US census is the trump card to anything else anyone of you can produce as it is the official number the united states government officially recognizes as the absolute standard. so it would be a primary source...

Now a graph or some BS extrapolation from a news paper or the like describing what the census said would be a secondary source and if ever the two sources conflict the secondary source material is discarded for the primary..

Then you have tertiary sources.. this is almost garbage/no point in quoting as this is often personal conjecture and or speculation based.

Most of you are blindly quoting tertiary material as if it means something. I have several times given you my source as the us census and if any of you people cared to look it up you would find a neat spread sheet:

Table 75. Self-Described Religious Identification of Adult Population: 1990, 2001 and 2008
[In thousands (175,440 represents 175,440,000). The methodology of the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2008 replicated that used in previous surveys. The three surveys are based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential households in the continental U.S.A (48 states): 54,461 interviews in 2008, 50,281 in 2001, and 113,723 in 1990. Respondents were asked to describe themselves in terms of religion with an open-ended question. Interviewers did not prompt or offer a suggested list of potential answers. Moreover, the self-description of respondents was not based on whether established religious bodies, institutions, churches, mosques or synagogues considered them to be members. Instead, the surveys sought to determine whether the respondents regarded themselves as adherents of a religious community. Subjective rather than objective standards of religious identification were tapped by the surveys]
Religious Group 1990 2001 2008

Adult population, total \1 175,440 207,983 228,182

Christian, total \2 151,225 159,514 173,402
Catholic 46,004 50,873 57,199
Baptist 33,964 33,820 36,148
Protestant-no denomination supplied 17,214 4,647 5,187
Methodist/Wesleyan 14,174 14,039 11,366
Lutheran 9,110 9,580 8,674
Christian-no denomination supplied 8,073 14,190 16,834
Presbyterian 4,985 5,596 4,723
Pentecostal/Charismatic 3,116 4,407 5,416
Episcopalian/Anglican 3,043 3,451 2,405
Mormon/Latter-Day Saints 2,487 2,697 3,158
Churches of Christ 1,769 2,593 1,921
Jehovah's Witness 1,381 1,331 1,914
Seventh-Day Adventist 668 724 938
Assemblies of God 617 1,105 810
Holiness/Holy 610 569 352
Congregational/United Church of Christ 438 1,378 736
Church of the Nazarene 549 544 358
Church of God 590 943 663
Orthodox (Eastern) 502 645 824
Evangelical/Born Again \3 546 1,088 2,154
Mennonite 235 346 438
Christian Science 214 194 339
Church of the Brethren 206 358 231
Nondenominational \3 194 2,489 8,032
Disciples of Christ 144 492 263
Reformed/Dutch Reform 161 289 206
Apostolic/New Apostolic 117 254 970
Quaker 67 217 130
Christian Reform 40 79 381
Foursquare Gospel 28 70 116
Independent Christian Church 25 71 86
Other Christian \4 105 254 206
Other Religions, total \2 5,853 7,740 8,796
Jewish 3,137 2,837 2,680
Muslim 527 1,104 1,349
Buddhist 404 1,082 1,189
Unitarian/Universalist 502 629 586
Hindu 227 766 582
Native American 47 103 186
Sikh 13 57 78
Wiccan 8 134 342
Pagan (NA) 140 340
Spiritualist (NA) 116 426
Other unclassified \4 991 774 1,030
No Religion specified, total \2 14,331 29,481 34,169
Atheist (\5) 902 1,621
Agnostic \5 1,186 991 1,985
Humanist 29 49 90
No Religion 13,116 27,486 30,427
Other No Religion \4 (NA) 57 45
Refused to reply to question 4,031 11,246 11,815
SYMBOL:
NA Not available.
FOOTNOTES:
\1 Refers to the total number of adults in all fifty states. All other figures are based on projections from surveys conducted in the continental United States (48 states).
\2 Includes other groups, not shown separately.
\3 Because of the subjective nature of replies to open-ended question, these categories are the most unstable as they do not refer to clearly identifiable denominations as much as underlying feelings about religion. Thus they may be the most subject to fluctuation over time.
\4 Estimates for subpopulations smaller than 75,000 adults are aggregated to minimize sampling errors.
\5 Atheist included in Agnostic.
Source: 1990 data, Barry A. Kosmin and Seymour P. Lachman, "One Nation Under God: Religion in Contemporary American Society, 1993"; 2001 data, Barry A. Kosmin and Ariela Keysar, Religion in A Free Market: Religious and Non-Religious Americans, Who, What, Why, Where, 2006; 2008 data, Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture, Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
For more information:
http://www.trincoll.edu/Academics/center...ve.aspx> and
www.AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS.org
Internet Release Date: 09/30/2011


so the columns are three year spreads 1990 is the first then 2001 and then 2008
in 90 christian totaled 151,000,000 and in 2008 they totaled 173,000,000

now keep in mind the 228,000,000 is the total number of people out of 173,000,000 are christian which is about .75 or 75%

Just like uncle drich said.. why? because he does his research before he speaks and rarly does so from emotional want.

now from 1990 to 2008 the numbers are going up each time the census has been taken...
so your article your speculation... all wrong.

does that mean in 10 years something hasn't changed? no not at all, which is why I open my first post with letssee what the comming census has to say... but again the church ebbs and flows with the economy. the better things are.. the lower the church attendance.

In 2001 we had 9-11 and in 2008 we had the biggest market crash ever.. it would be interesting to see who is still going to God when the world is not at an end.

[Mathilda]

Drippy's over here because he's had his ass so thoroughly handed to him over at AF.org. He's not going to admit that, though. I want to know who invited that turd into this punch bowl?   It gives me more to ignore, I guess. 

I'm here because it is literally silent over there. I guess that is what happens when you have your questions answered. you leave and find another place to play pretend the contradictions you have for leaving the church remain unanswered.  I would gladly go back if and when the atheists over there posted some questions they could ask and factually discuss if they wanted to counter.

Just be aware though that this isn't AF. This is a new home for the old TTA community. AF is more geared towards combative debate whereas this forum is more like a coffee house where people hang out. Both AF and AD occupy different niches. A lot of the Christians from AF left there after things got too heated and moved here. Admittedly they didn't really stay here for too long either but I think they left relatively happy, albeit possibly somewhat bored because they originally joined AF for the fight.

[Drich]

or look it up yourself:
(you need excel)
https://www.census.gov/library/publicati...ation.html

[Drich]

Drippy's over here because he's had his ass so thoroughly handed to him over at AF.org. He's not going to admit that, though. I want to know who invited that turd into this punch bowl?   It gives me more to ignore, I guess. 

I'm here because it is literally silent over there. I guess that is what happens when you have your questions answered. you leave and find another place to play pretend the contradictions you have for leaving the church remain unanswered.  I would gladly go back if and when the atheists over there posted some questions they could ask and factually discuss if they wanted to counter.

Just be aware though that this isn't AF. This is a new home for the old TTA community. AF is more geared towards combative debate whereas this forum is more like a coffee house where people hang out. Both AF and AD occupy different niches. A lot of the Christians from AF left there after things got too heated and moved here. Admittedly they didn't really stay here for too long either but I think they left relatively happy, albeit possibly somewhat bored because they originally joined AF for the fight.

I get it. which is why I am.. trying to play nice.. which can difficult when the same AF people don't seem to be as 'regulated' in what they say to me as I have just been warned to be towards them. but Again I get I am in a place where conflict is apart of the game So long as I do not shoot back to kill.

Not trying to start a fight just defining my limits and role. don't want to be accused of breaking a unsaid rule, if there is a rule I need to hear it even if it is one sided, as I am seriously trying to play by the rules without up setting what you have here. IE I don't want to fight if this is not a place for a fight.

[SYZ]

...my point is FACTS like the US census trumps anything these nutters have to say.

Well, yes.  I agree that the Federal censuses of any/all countries are the most accurate way of determining
people's religion or lack thereof.  Which is why I always cite the Australian figures as that's where I reside,
so they're the most relevant to me personally.  On the other hand, you appear to be simply grabbing figures
out of thin air, as I note you never provide citations with your claims.      

I note too that you have a very American-centric viewpoint of religion, which seems to colour your notion of
the decline of religion in other developed countries such as the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, the UK, New
Zealand, Spain and Italy.    Atheism and agnosticism are obviously both on the rise in those countries too.

I note that you say your "primary focus is with atheists and providing them with the truth and providing clarity
so they can make informed decisions about God."  Apart from being patronising in the extreme—supposing
that we atheists need educating—your proposed "focus" is a total waste of time considering that this is an
atheist forum.  Most of your input thus far seems to be nothing more than devious proselytising, as you've
not participated in any other threads; do you have opinions about anything other than religion?

[Mathilda]

I note too that you have a very American-centric viewpoint of religion, which seems to colour your notion of
the decline of religion in other developed countries such as the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, the UK, New
Zealand, Spain and Italy.    Atheism and agnosticism are obviously both on the rise in those countries too.

Also worth pointing out that this is an international forum. Reminds me of this youtube ...

[Mathilda]

Official census data for England and Wales:

Religion in England and Wales 2011

Between 2001 and 2011 there has been a decrease in people who identify as Christian (from 71.7 per cent to 59.3 per cent) and an increase in those reporting no religion (from 14.8 per cent to 25.1 per cent). There were increases in the other main religious group categories, with the number of Muslims increasing the most (from 3.0 per cent to 4.8 per cent).

The religion question was the only voluntary question on the 2011 census and 7.2 per cent of people did not answer the question.

[Chas]

Do you guys understand how data is sourced and how it is rated?

Primary, secondary, tertiary source materials?

The US census is the trump card to anything else anyone of you can produce as it is the official number the united states government officially recognizes as the absolute standard. so it would be a primary source...

Now a graph or some BS extrapolation from a news paper or the like describing what the census said would be a secondary source and if ever the two sources conflict the secondary source material is discarded for the primary..

Then you have tertiary sources.. this is almost garbage/no point in quoting as this is often personal conjecture and or speculation based.

Most of you are blindly quoting tertiary material as if it means something. I have several times given you my source as the us census and if any of you people cared to look it up you would find a neat spread sheet:

Table 75. Self-Described Religious Identification of Adult Population: 1990, 2001 and 2008
[In thousands (175,440 represents 175,440,000). The methodology of the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2008 replicated that used in previous surveys. The three surveys are based on random-digit-dialing telephone surveys of residential households in the continental U.S.A (48 states): 54,461 interviews in 2008, 50,281 in 2001, and 113,723 in 1990. Respondents were asked to describe themselves in terms of religion with an open-ended question. Interviewers did not prompt or offer a suggested list of potential answers. Moreover, the self-description of respondents was not based on whether established religious bodies, institutions, churches, mosques or synagogues considered them to be members. Instead, the surveys sought to determine whether the respondents regarded themselves as adherents of a religious community. Subjective rather than objective standards of religious identification were tapped by the surveys]
Religious Group       1990        2001        2008
 
Adult population, total \1 175,440 207,983 228,182
 
Christian, total \2 151,225 159,514 173,402
Catholic 46,004 50,873 57,199
Baptist 33,964 33,820 36,148
Protestant-no denomination supplied 17,214 4,647 5,187
Methodist/Wesleyan 14,174 14,039 11,366
Lutheran 9,110 9,580 8,674
Christian-no denomination supplied 8,073 14,190 16,834
Presbyterian 4,985 5,596 4,723
Pentecostal/Charismatic 3,116 4,407 5,416
Episcopalian/Anglican 3,043 3,451 2,405
Mormon/Latter-Day Saints 2,487 2,697 3,158
Churches of Christ 1,769 2,593 1,921
Jehovah's Witness 1,381 1,331 1,914
Seventh-Day Adventist 668 724 938
Assemblies of God 617 1,105 810
Holiness/Holy 610 569 352
Congregational/United Church of Christ 438 1,378 736
Church of the Nazarene 549 544 358
Church of God 590 943 663
Orthodox (Eastern) 502 645 824
Evangelical/Born Again \3 546 1,088 2,154
Mennonite 235 346 438
Christian Science 214 194 339
Church of the Brethren 206 358 231
Nondenominational \3 194 2,489 8,032
Disciples of Christ 144 492 263
Reformed/Dutch Reform 161 289 206
Apostolic/New Apostolic 117 254 970
Quaker 67 217 130
Christian Reform 40 79 381
Foursquare Gospel 28 70 116
Independent Christian Church 25 71 86
Other Christian \4 105 254 206
 Other Religions, total \2 5,853 7,740 8,796
Jewish 3,137 2,837 2,680
Muslim 527 1,104 1,349
Buddhist 404 1,082 1,189
Unitarian/Universalist 502 629 586
Hindu 227 766 582
Native American 47 103 186
Sikh 13 57 78
Wiccan 8 134 342
Pagan (NA) 140 340
Spiritualist (NA) 116 426
Other unclassified \4 991 774 1,030
 No Religion specified, total \2 14,331 29,481 34,169
Atheist (\5) 902 1,621
Agnostic \5 1,186 991 1,985
Humanist 29 49 90
No Religion 13,116 27,486 30,427
Other No Religion \4 (NA) 57 45
 Refused to reply to question 4,031 11,246 11,815
SYMBOL:
NA Not available.
FOOTNOTES:
\1 Refers to the total number of adults in all fifty states. All other figures are based on projections from surveys conducted in the continental United States (48 states).
\2 Includes other groups, not shown separately.
\3 Because of the subjective nature of replies to open-ended question, these categories are the most unstable as they do not refer to clearly identifiable denominations as much as underlying feelings about religion. Thus they may be the most subject to fluctuation over time.
\4 Estimates for subpopulations smaller than 75,000 adults are aggregated to minimize sampling errors.
\5 Atheist included in Agnostic.
Source: 1990 data, Barry A. Kosmin and Seymour P. Lachman, "One Nation Under God: Religion in Contemporary American Society, 1993"; 2001 data, Barry A. Kosmin and Ariela Keysar, Religion in A Free Market: Religious and Non-Religious Americans, Who, What, Why, Where, 2006; 2008 data, Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture, Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
For more information:
http://www.trincoll.edu/Academics/center...ve.aspx> and
www.AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS.org
Internet Release Date: 09/30/2011


so the columns are three year spreads 1990 is the first then 2001 and then 2008
in 90 christian totaled 151,000,000 and in 2008 they totaled 173,000,000

now keep in mind the 228,000,000 is the total number of people out of 173,000,000 are christian which is about .75 or 75%

Just like uncle drich said.. why? because he does his research before he speaks and rarly does so from emotional want.

now from 1990 to 2008 the numbers are going up each time the census has been taken...
so your article your speculation... all wrong.

does that mean in 10 years something hasn't changed? no not at all, which is why I open my first post with letssee what the comming census has to say... but again the church ebbs and flows with the economy. the better things are.. the lower the church attendance.

In 2001 we had 9-11 and in 2008 we had the biggest market crash ever.. it would be interesting to see who is still going to God when the world is not at an end.

Your list of numbers makes little to no sense.  Try fixing that.

[Minimalist]

It does not matter who's they are they represent not fact but opinion.

Hey, Fuckface!  You want to take a guess what your fucking opinion is worth?

You can pull your Trumpy "fake news" routine all you like and you might even fool other assholes like yourself.  But jesus is dying in the west because it is nothing but a pile of shit and always has been.

[possibletarian]

which again is why I started with this should be an easy thing to determine after the 2020 census... Not to mention there was never any mega churches in england like here. meaning churches that seat 10k people or more. I'm sure there are several churches in england that will accommodate 2000 or more which is the min requirement.. however Mega churches here in the US are still growing and poping up everywhere. and again what looks liked failed neighbrhood churches are really the result of the massive congergation sucking up members from every denomination.

Of course, you seem to be making my point for me though. Christians are having to huddle together and constantly re-assure themselves in larger and larger numbers as they see their faith failing.  There will be more abuse and messing of heads as the larger churches try and control their flocks.

I've been to one they are great and there is no hassle you can just be a member of the crowd and disappear if that is what you want.

Is that what christians want ?

Lots of them are set up like coffee shops with free everything then lounge areas and going to church is like going to a theatrical event now.

It always was theatre

The bands play on a professional level often times will host a literal recording artist as art director, (of the churches near me was originally seeded/built by the good olde benny hinn (super televangelist)

The guy who was investigated for tax fraud and abuse ?

so it seats several thousand maybe 10 (looks like a massive ware house complex) the preacher now is some woman how happens to be married to the keyboard guy in Journey! who happens to be the music program director.) they rock out to jesus tunes but also have other music as well and special concerts and the like for members only. The church I went to pastor son was the hottest christian recording artist in the last 10 years and he too was a program director.. the cool thing there was he was a songwriter as well and out church where singing his hit songs before they came on the radio.. then they have broadway style plays every week or ever other week. I honestly do not know how they manage all of this stuff.

So a feel good concert then ?

All i'm pointing out is just because the church does not look like you remember does not mean it is dead especially considering the numbers.

Oh I'm not saying individual churches are dead, just that christianity is consistently loosing adherents in the U.S. Some churches will get bigger, but they too will fade eventually.

where are these numbers posted. I quoted the US census. what other numbers do you have?

A google search shows many sources, but what i find interesting is that chrstian numbers are being held up by the Hispanic population.

https://relevantmagazine.com/god/generat...-it-looks/
https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/chur...cades.aspx
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts...edirect=on

I being a member of a mega church at one point thought I explained why people liked them better? You walk into a free starbucks.. get your coffee how ever you like free get a donut or pastry free Sit in a nice wifi coffee shop/lounge till services where you are being entertained by literal rock stars in some cases

And, I fail to see what your starry eyed view of your church has to do with the reality of a declining christianity in the U.S.

(again my example wrote the majority of Dont stop believin by journey) This is the music director at that church. Then access to small venue events like 2 or three guys from journey and the church band play an unplugged concert. 

Again I fail to see why you even put this (apart from journey being a awful glam rock band)  

Then a play or some sort of video production which is the primary sermon and then a 10 or 15 min speech, and then you exit to a free brunch!

I'm sorry, what's the point you are making ?

Now this is done every week. The small 3 hour neighborhood preacher has little to nothing to offer an entertainment based audience. That is why people are moving in droves.

Everything you have put here is really materialistic, free coffee, loud music, theatrics,  noise and light There's nothing in your whole reply which realtes to a god satisfying the spiritual needs of people, it's simply an expression of theatre

Again from a member, and not someone who has never gone to church (you) like this.

?

The church of england failed because people are not stupid.

Correct

God left along time ago if he was ever there. all one need understand is basic english history and can see how the church Got it's start. from then on it was doomed as it operated as a branch of the kingdom.

Well anything that pretends there is a god is doomed eventually as people are educated and enlightened. You do realise that the church of England isn't the only church in the UK..right ?

You are comparing a traditional allegiance to a forced religion, to something people want to do because they are fed entertained and get a good dose of God. Apples and oranges.

Not really, yours was forced in the same way.  And why would a god need all that smoke and mirrors, if indeed he makes your hearts happy ?

All you have done is shown a kind of feel-good concert that has no lasting or real value whatsoever.

even with mega churches in full swing I do not count that as a revival. it is again just the normal possible a slight decline as the church runs it's normal course of ebb and flow.

Except it's more ebbing than flowing, just because a few churches grow, which is they are as your describe it are mere theatre, more like a pop-cult than a body of believers, so what all kinds of cults and people with common interest grow into large gatherings every week.  I would guess the mega-churches are dwarfed by football or pop attendances.I went to single race a few weekends ago attended by over 88,000 people.  It certainly had a feel-good almost carnival atmosphere about it, the difference is i recognised it for what it was.. entertainment.

[Drich]

...my point is FACTS like the US census trumps anything these nutters have to say.

Well, yes.  I agree that the Federal censuses of any/all countries are the most accurate way of determining
people's religion or lack thereof.  Which is why I always cite the Australian figures as that's where I reside,
so they're the most relevant to me personally.  On the other hand, you appear to be simply grabbing figures
out of thin air, as I note you never provide citations with your claims.

post 35 and 37.. if you will note those posts precede the one you made, so it seems you have ignored the information you are claiming i neglected to provide.     

I note too that you have a very American-centric viewpoint of religion, which seems to colour your notion of
the decline of religion in other developed countries such as the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, the UK, New
Zealand, Spain and Italy.

because that is the topic of the OP.
It centers on the church in america or rather the patheos article focuses on the church in america and the OP did not make any other effort to include stats that justify bring the rest of the world into the conversation. Trying to bring in stats from all over the world was done later after I pointed out the pathos article was based on the census' numbers as an attempt to move the goal post and broaden the topic.

   Atheism and agnosticism are obviously both on the rise in those countries too.

this maybe true in whogivesacrapistan, but here in Merica all "others" (including atheism misotheism and legomeggonstics repersent less than 6%)

I note that you say your "primary focus is with atheists and providing them with the truth and providing clarity
so they can make informed decisions about God."

whichis why I took time to point out to you why my pov is what it is. (because that is the direction set by the OP)

 

Apart from being patronising in the extreme—supposing

ah, it get's better..

that we atheists need educating—your proposed "focus" is a total waste of time considering that this is an
atheist forum.

AF.org was full of people like you, and what 5 6 years ago on my first day after point out the very same mission statement they told me the very same things. in fact i got two pages of negative responses talking about my arrogance and presumption, then they would try and call the shot that would take me out and send me home running... This last month at AF was about how I am still here after all that shot calling. and those who made those claims have either converted and or left.

Also take note that I have been 'warned' hand cuffed here so as to play nice. when in all your years has the Atheist web site big britches boss told a christian to play nce and to dial it back "we don't fight things out here, this is more of a coffee shop library place?"

Maybe, just maybe I do have some things you've never heard before or perhaps some topics that will make you question what you so strongly believe right now that may have you completely reexamine.

  Most of your input thus far seems to be nothing more than devious proselytising, as you've
not participated in any other threads; do you have opinions about anything other than religion?

Actually I have.. several in fact it seems your researching skills are 'feeling based.' maybe try and use the awesome power the search bar grants you before you make another wrong assumption.

Not only that aside from point out the church exist outside of the sunday morning meeting, where I even mentioned God or the bible? how then can you accuse me of proselytising? You understand to proselytize is to preach the word of God... so again show me where I was preaching.

I've only had a discussion on the forms the church takes and the us census numbers.

[adey67]

Interesting grasping at straws here by an evangelical remarking on the "supposed demise" of the church, the rise of the nones, etc.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/...ng-church/

What he's spectacularly wrong about is that followers of what he labels "liberal theology" are less spiritual or religious. That's utter rubbish, theologians like John Shelby Spong are deeply religious. Clearly he feels threatened by the liberal churches, this isn't that surprising really given the fact that they give people in conservative churches the positive framework to replace their dated dogmatic fundamentalist theology, and strip the church of its power and control over people.

Spong was a major catalyst for me leaving religion in a gradual orderly fashion. His book "rescuing the bible from fundamentalism" helped me leave a fundamentalist church and throw off the shackles of their ridiculous intelligence insulting dogma and the crushing guilt that they used to control me.

[Minimalist]

The only thing wrong with Spong is that he still seems to think there is some sort of silly-assed god around.

One of his better observations:

The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

[Fireball]

Drippy's over here because he's had his ass so thoroughly handed to him over at AF.org. He's not going to admit that, though. I want to know who invited that turd into this punch bowl?   It gives me more to ignore, I guess. 

I'm here because it is literally silent over there. I guess that is what happens when you have your questions answered. you leave and find another place to play pretend the contradictions you have for leaving the church remain unanswered.  I would gladly go back if and when the atheists over there posted some questions they could ask and factually discuss if they wanted to counter.

Just be aware though that this isn't AF. This is a new home for the old TTA community. AF is more geared towards combative debate whereas this forum is more like a coffee house where people hang out. Both AF and AD occupy different niches. A lot of the Christians from AF left there after things got too heated and moved here. Admittedly they didn't really stay here for too long either but I think they left relatively happy, albeit possibly somewhat bored because they originally joined AF for the fight.

OK. I wouldn't call what drich does fighting so much as like a little kid flailing his arms and expecting people to put up their dukes, and when they do, he just swings more with no realization that he's been punched out. Must have an iron jaw...in any event, like I said, it's just more to ignore. If it's a real fight he wants, he can go to ravingatheists.com.

[Minimalist]

Drippy usually thinks he can post a verse or two of his fucking bible as if that cinches any argument.  That may work with asshole religitards but it has never gotten him anywhere with us rational people.

[Drich]

Drippy usually thinks he can post a verse or two of his fucking bible as if that cinches any argument.  That may work with asshole religitards but it has never gotten him anywhere with us rational people.

so I see you haven't dealt with your senality yet... this should make for interesting posts... 

Just so we are on the same page I do not generally quote the bible unless asked.. In fact I reword what the bible says so most of you have no idea I am preaching the word of god to you.

So no... I do not post verses.. make make a note or we can have this discussion again tomorrow..

So, make make a note or we can have this discussion again tomorrow..

ok then remember,  make make a note or we can have this discussion again tomorrow..

one more thing.... make a note or we can have this discussion again tomorrow..