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The "myth" of the dying church

The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 03:26 PM)Drich Wrote: are you kidding? If I do not want to sell a product to someone because I do not want my products to support an organisation or life style I even on religious basis the federal government will step in and force my compliance. How is forcing someone to comply against strongly held religious beliefs not a form of persecution?

That's called the paradox of tolerence. A tolerent society cannot tolerate your intolerence for it to remain tolerent. Your religious beliefs are persecuting people. We can't let you persecute people. Then again, you can't persecute people only on the basis of their gender, their race/ethnicity, their religion and their sexual orientation (sexual identity might be included at some point, but I'm not sure it's currently the case). These are all things that are considered essential to another person's sense of self and identity. At some point, if your zealotry prevents you from treating as equal all the members of your society, your zealotry must go, as it prevents you from respecting the social contract of your society. No rights are unlimited. 

That's not persecution either as all people, no matter who they are, are subjected to the same rules of conduct. These rules are not aimed specifically at Christians. Atheist, muslim or hindu homophobes would also have to make wedding cakes for gay people too for example and gay people who are in the wedding cake business also have to make cakes for Christians fundamentalists and zealots. That's how equality works. Christian fundamentalists and zealots aren't alone to have prescription in their holy books and traditions that ask for racist, sexist, homophobic and generally intolerant behaviors and all of these are equally touched. 

You are either asking for the right to persecute people and them not be able to return the favor or you are asking for the right for everybody to percecute everybody else should their religion or ideology press them too, confident that your status as a majority group (or at least as an "invisible minority") will insure that you would not suffer much if at all from it. In other words, you aren't persecuted, you want  to persecute people.

Quote:Did you know we can not discuss politics in church?

That doesn't stop any advocacy of socialy conservative and reactionnary policies or progressive "poor friendly" fiscal policies for which Christian churches are well known and very powerful. It's well known that no Republican presidential candidate cannot be selected without the support of the Evangelical movement. The churches connection to political parties and various NGO who advocate for policy changes is well known. The concept of seperation of the Church from the State though requires ministers not to involve themselves so directly into politics as they have a high form of moral authority over their flock. It also leaves people open to blackmail and abuse of power of all sorts. Again, that's true for all faiths, not just Christians. Imams aren't alowed tell their congregation how to vote or how they should vote directly, neither can they finance directly a Party.


Quote:Did you know Our specific church that was built in the 1950 in down down which is now the posh side of town, in the 70s bought pretty much the whole block when crime was bad. and in the 1990s want to rent out some of the homes we completely remodeled. and the city would not allow it. (they said the church could not profit from real estate, it was explain we were trying to recoup costs and maintain the structures/homes with this money.) the city said no. We also have 4 lots about 1/2 an acre a piece we used for parking till about 10 years ago when the city said parking in the church owned lot was forbidden and they started towing cars out of the lots at 330.00 each.

They made the members park at one place 1 mile up the street and another remote lot even further away. we had to run shuttle busses. membership dropped dramatically. it is to the point where this church is being forced out of the current location because of unfair regulation concerning property the church purchased and revamped free and clear.

In essence this is now a rich gay neighborhood and the residence put pressure on the city to get rid of the church.

Now they are struggling to get a permit to fix a leaking roof.. this is not a poor neighborhood church. 750 well to do members once went there. now even after being forced out 400 to 500 members still attend weekly. It is not a matter of the church can not afford.. it is a matter of city politics.

Again, not a case of persecution based on your Christian identity, but based on the legal status of religous organisation (which requires them to be non-profit to be tax exampt) and zoning in cities. That's just a church having a problem with city official based on the status of religious organisation and zoning laws, not a case of a Christian chruch being dismantled because it's Christian.
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 03:11 PM)Drich Wrote:
(08-12-2019, 08:28 PM)Free Wrote:
(08-12-2019, 08:25 PM)Drich Wrote: census is every 10 years... AS I SAID 100 TIMES NOW WE NEED THE THIRD DATA POINT 2020 WILL OFFER to properly determine whether or not the belief is in decline.

My only statement was to show that the article in the op is right and the most current numbers currently show it.

The US Census Bureau hasn't asked questions about religious affiliation since the 1950s. You know that right?

not directly but through the Association of statisticians of American religious Bodies or us religious census
http://www.usreligioncensus.org/index.php

They picked up in 1952 and kept polling every 10 years. The way these guys work is through the church which is a loop hole to go end round asking people directly.

but YOU KNEW that right?

There's no evidence that the US Census Bureau is using any information from that group.

But ... you knew that, right?
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 04:17 PM)Drich Wrote:
(08-13-2019, 10:33 AM)SYZ Wrote: ..Which represents an increase of 42% in the nones.

...the only thing I have said here is we need more data, and that the current data does not reflect a decline in the church.

Nope.  We don't need more data.  All past censuses have indicated an overall (but admittedly sometimes variable rate)
of decline in the number of people in developed first-world countries who define themselves as religious, who attend
church on a regular basis, or who say they believe in God or gods.  This trend is particularly notable in the younger
generation; according to a Pew report of 13 June 2018, out of 106 countries surveyed, young adults are significantly
less likely to be affiliated with a religious group in 41. In only two countries are young adults more likely to identify
with a religion, while there is no significant difference in 63 countries.

Looked at another way, young adults are more likely to be religiously unaffiliated. This is especially true in North America,
where in both the US and Canada, younger people are less likely to claim a religious identity. These findings are in line
with the rise of the religious "nones" in the US, which is being driven largely by high levels of disaffiliation among young
generations.

"Young adults" refers to the 18 to 39 age demographic.

This Pew survey asked  "What is your present religion, if any?" Respondents were given a country-specific list of potential
responses—which generally included several major world religions, as well as "atheist", "agnostic" or "nothing in particular".
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 03:31 PM)Drich Wrote:
(08-12-2019, 08:55 PM)Free Wrote:
(08-12-2019, 08:48 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: In 2010, I worked doing the Census.  I can attest that the forms did not in fact ask any questions about religion.

They haven't asked any questions about religion since the 1950s.

His religious data comes from a non-official source.

...but again certified by the US census as it is on an official document and spread sheet.

Cited, not certified. And in 2008 the people conducting that survey determined that religion was on the decline. That's the conclusion drawn by your source over a decade ago. Which side are you arguing again?
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The "myth" of the dying church
Is christianity dying?

In Australia, UK, Canada, Europe and the US (except in the US bible belt)---YES, I think so. I'll have a little bit of a look around.

OVERALL, no I don't think so.

Christianity continues to attract new members in Africa, South and Central America. Poor, ignorant and desperate people are easy marks for religion. Has always been thus. From the very beginning, christianity has ben popular with the marginalised. Initially, it was with slaves and women.

Just had a look on line. LOTS of articles, but apparently no consensus. Sadly, it seems the notion that christianity is dying overall may be just wishful thinking.
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 03:26 PM)Drich Wrote: are you kidding? If I do not want to sell a product to someone because I do not want my products to support an organisation or life style I even on religious basis the federal government will step in and force my compliance. How is forcing someone to comply against strongly held religious beliefs not a form of persecution?

LMAO. 
YOU voluntarily applied for a commercial business license form the jurisdictional locality in which you wish to do business. 
It is the province of the law to regulate business affairs. The authority to grant the license YOU VOLUNTARILY applied for, is had by the locality as a result of voting and elections and laws made by ALL the citizens of the locality you CHOSE to do business in. Not just the straight white people. Your reasoning sucks the big one. If you ask all the citizens for a license to do business, then you are responsible to all the citizens, not just the few you want to serve.
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 03:26 PM)Drich Wrote: How is forcing someone to comply against strongly held religious beliefs not a form of persecution?

Poor privileged white male who feels persecuted because he isn't allowed to persecute. Sending thoughts and prayers your way.
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The "myth" of the dying church
Quote:Nope.  We don't need more data. 

I love that kind of data.  Data which shows that sanctimonious xhristard cunts are dying out is always welcome!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 03:42 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:in 2010 I was interviewed by the census and can in fact not remember anything other than how rude the census taker was.


I guess it never occurred to you that you bring out rudeness in people by being such an unrelenting asswipe!  You're the type who would be beaten up by Quakers.

And, the Amish would be standing in line, waiting their turn.
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 04:17 PM)Free Wrote: There is a distinct difference between "certified" and "confirmation."

That's way above Drippy's pay grade, and education level.
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-13-2019, 10:14 PM)grympy Wrote: Is christianity dying?

In Australia, UK, Canada, Europe and the US (except in the US bible belt)---YES, I think so. I'll have a little bit of a look around.

OVERALL, no I don't think so.

Christianity continues to attract new members in Africa, South and Central America.  Poor, ignorant and desperate people are easy marks for religion. Has always been thus. From the very beginning, christianity has ben popular  with the marginalised. Initially, it was with slaves and women.

Just had a look on line. LOTS of articles, but apparently no consensus. Sadly, it seems the notion that christianity is dying overall may be just wishful thinking.

There are certainly local pockets of strength. Certain Polynesian countries, like the Cook Islands and (Western) Samoa, were successfully proselytized by denominations like the Wesleyans and the Congregationalists over a century ago, and that or a weird synthesis of Christianity and remnants of indigenous religious traditions, have become the official (or sometimes, unofficial) state religion in those countries. There are similar examples in some African countries.

I think it's fairer to say that Christian fundamentalism is on the ropes on an overall basis, but that Christianity broadly is not yet, and probably won't be anytime soon. I see that taking many generations to get to the place where it's marginalized weirdness and out of the mainstream. And even then, I think there will always be a market for it, albeit a small one. I've long said it will take another thousand years to get to that place with the Abrahamic religions. But the extreme / fundamentalist wings of those religions, are already mortally wounded. Like any cornered animal, they are still dangerous, of course.
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The "myth" of the dying church
Religion is pretty much just a business and when the customer base dries up it vanishes!

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/08/churche...-declines/

Quote:Churches in America are being transformed into mosques, Buddhist temples, and breweries as Christianity declines

Quote:Over the past few decades, vacant and underutilized churches have become a familiar sight in American cities.
In some cases, a congregation or a religious governing body – say, a Catholic diocese – will sell the church to developers, who then turn them into apartments, offices, art galleries, museums, breweries or performance spaces.
But what about churches in neighborhoods that aren’t doing well, areas that are less attractive to developers looking to turn a profit?

In Buffalo, New York, two empty Roman Catholic churches [url=https://doi.org/10.1080/17549175.2019.1647276]were recently converted
– not into apartments or offices, but into other places of worship. One became an Islamic mosque, the other a Buddhist temple.

Mosques and temples are not much in the way of improvements as islam and buddhism are every bit as much a pile of shit  as jesusism but we can always use more breweries!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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The "myth" of the dying church
More good news.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...edirect=on

Quote:Why white evangelicals should panic

Quote:But this is not, by any reasonable measure, the largest problem evangelicals face. It is, instead, the massive sell-off of evangelicalism among the young. About 26 percent of Americans 65 and older identify as white evangelical Protestants. Among those ages 18 to 29, the figure is 8 percent. Why this demographic abyss does not cause greater panic — panic concerning the existence of evangelicalism as a major force in the United States — is a mystery and a scandal. With their focus on repeal of the Johnson Amendment and the right to say “Merry Christmas,” some evangelical leaders are tidying up the kitchen while the house burns down around them.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-30-2019, 03:56 PM)Minimalist Wrote: More good news.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...edirect=on

Quote:Why white evangelicals should panic

Quote:But this is not, by any reasonable measure, the largest problem evangelicals face. It is, instead, the massive sell-off of evangelicalism among the young. About 26 percent of Americans 65 and older identify as white evangelical Protestants. Among those ages 18 to 29, the figure is 8 percent. Why this demographic abyss does not cause greater panic — panic concerning the existence of evangelicalism as a major force in the United States — is a mystery and a scandal. With their focus on repeal of the Johnson Amendment and the right to say “Merry Christmas,” some evangelical leaders are tidying up the kitchen while the house burns down around them.

Evangelicals are sensing their precarious situation, which is one of the reasons they are willing to rationalize supporting the likes of Trump. That's desperate. Their diagnosis and prescription for a cure are, of course, wrong, but that doesn't mean they won't drag the rest of society -- maybe much of the planet -- into a painful and possibly dystopian world of hurt for a generation or two, before their final and inevitable collapse.
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-31-2019, 01:55 AM)mordant Wrote:
(08-30-2019, 03:56 PM)Minimalist Wrote: More good news.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...edirect=on

Quote:Why white evangelicals should panic

Quote:But this is not, by any reasonable measure, the largest problem evangelicals face. It is, instead, the massive sell-off of evangelicalism among the young. About 26 percent of Americans 65 and older identify as white evangelical Protestants. Among those ages 18 to 29, the figure is 8 percent. Why this demographic abyss does not cause greater panic — panic concerning the existence of evangelicalism as a major force in the United States — is a mystery and a scandal. With their focus on repeal of the Johnson Amendment and the right to say “Merry Christmas,” some evangelical leaders are tidying up the kitchen while the house burns down around them.
 



Evangelicals are sensing their precarious situation, which is one of the reasons they are willing to rationalize supporting the likes of Trump. That's desperate. Their diagnosis and prescription for a cure are, of course, wrong, but that doesn't mean they won't drag the rest of society -- maybe much of the planet -- into a painful and possibly dystopian world of hurt for a generation or two, before their final and inevitable collapse.

 Are evangelicals convinced again/still that we are in "the end of days", or nearly?

This par for the course for millennial sects.  .They seem to  be inordinately fond of The Book Of  Revelations .I think Seventh Day Adventists were founded on a  prophecy based  on interpretation of some of the Book Of Revelations. Not sure about JW's . 

Anyway, prophecies didn't come true. No worries , a new prophecy is almost always at hand.  Not always; Christianity  is just another failed millennia  movement. Jesus is reported in the Gospels  as saying he would return 'soon'. At the very latest, his disciples expected him to return within their lifetime. When he did not, the were too smart  (?) to make another prophecy of imminence . Instead  they simply shifted focus.  Mainstream  Christians still believe in the second coming of Jesus, but the time frame is pretty vague. 


IMO ,under no circumstances should those fuckwits be permitted to have anything approaching political power. That his has happened says great deal about greta chunks of American voters. This not a surprise, surely ?

Australians can't really point any fingers .Our Current Prime Minster ,Scott Morrison is a happy clapper (Pentacostal) . He has been kept very busy recently, because when a crisis occurs, he
prays. I shit you not. Like Donald Trump, but too fucking sincere and ethical for words.

That I didn't vote for the shower of whom he is leader, is cold comfort. The cunt scares me to death.

I revert to one of my own aphorisms : "Beware of the true believer. They are naive at best, dangerous at worst"
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The "myth" of the dying church
Quote:Are evangelicals convinced again/still that we are in "the end of days", or nearly?


Jesusism is a death cult.  They can't wait for the boy to show up and massacre all the people they hate.  Assholes.

This is merely a partial list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_da...tic_events

But this is spot on.

Quote:Polls conducted in 2012 across 20 countries found over 14% of people believe the world will end in their lifetime, with percentages ranging from 6% of people in France to 22% in the US and Turkey. Belief in the apocalypse is most prevalent in people with lower rates of education, lower household incomes, and those under the age of 35.

Trump and jesus both love the poorly educated!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-31-2019, 02:43 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Are evangelicals convinced again/still that we are in "the end of days", or nearly?


Jesusism is a death cult.  They can't wait for the boy to show up and massacre all the people they hate.  Assholes.

This is merely a partial list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_da...tic_events

But this is spot on.

Quote:Polls conducted in 2012 across 20 countries found over 14% of people believe the world will end in their lifetime, with percentages ranging from 6% of people in France to 22% in the US and Turkey. Belief in the apocalypse is most prevalent in people with lower rates of education, lower household incomes, and those under the age of 35.

Trump and jesus both love the poorly educated!

Indeed. 

In the early days, the Christian  afterlife was so wonderfull that large numbers couldn't wait to go there.  So many chose martyrdom that  the church fathers had to put out a directive, forbidding people seek martyrdom. Seems they were running out of priests. I shit you not. 

Christianity has been a death cult since the very  beginning. Their most sacred image is of a man nailed  to a cross, where he died ,in unimaginable agony  .That has some how been twisted into  a good thing. 

The afterlife  is sooo much better than now. Fear of its loss makes it easy for the parasitic priestly caste to control their flock of sheep. (that name has always seemed hilariously  appropriate to me)
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The "myth" of the dying church
Just imagine...


If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would
be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses.          Big Grin
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-31-2019, 07:28 AM)SYZ Wrote: Just imagine...


If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would
be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses.           

Funny. Even funnier the first time I heard it, from Lenny Bruce  .  Tongue
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-31-2019, 02:21 AM)grympy Wrote:
(08-31-2019, 01:55 AM)mordant Wrote:
(08-30-2019, 03:56 PM)Minimalist Wrote: More good news.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...edirect=on
 

Evangelicals are sensing their precarious situation, which is one of the reasons they are willing to rationalize supporting the likes of Trump. That's desperate. Their diagnosis and prescription for a cure are, of course, wrong, but that doesn't mean they won't drag the rest of society -- maybe much of the planet -- into a painful and possibly dystopian world of hurt for a generation or two, before their final and inevitable collapse.

Are evangelicals convinced again/still that we are in "the end of days", or nearly?
Still. Their eschatology is a pretty fixed feature, including a fairly literal interpretation of Revelations, the notion of a 'rapture' and 7 year Great Tribulation, etc.

(08-31-2019, 02:21 AM)grympy Wrote: This par for the course for millennial sects.  .They seem to  be inordinately fond of The Book Of  Revelations .I think Seventh Day Adventists were founded on a  prophecy based  on interpretation of some of the Book Of Revelations. Not sure about JW's .

Anyway, prophecies didn't come true. No worries , a new prophecy is almost always at hand.  Not always; Christianity  is just another failed millennia  movement. Jesus is reported in the Gospels  as saying he would return 'soon'. At the very latest, his disciples expected him to return within their lifetime. When he did not, the were too smart  (?) to make another prophecy of imminence . Instead  they simply shifted focus.  Mainstream  Christians still believe in the second coming of Jesus, but the time frame is pretty vague.

A lot of the prophecies of Jesus' return are of the "soon" variety, but Jesus himself said that "some of you present will not taste death before the son of man returns". This turned out to be too specific, as it clearly didn't happen, and so evangelicals jump through hoops to try to alter what "death" means or what he was predicting exactly.

(08-31-2019, 02:21 AM)grympy Wrote: IMO ,under no circumstances should those fuckwits be permitted to have anything approaching political power. That his has happened  says great  deal about greta chunks of American voters.   This  not a surprise, surely ?

Not a surprise at all. Progressives and relative liberals are very much concentrated in the cities (even Bible Belt cities) with conservatives in rural areas. Rural America and urban America are strongly divided in that way. Not all conservatives are Christian fundamentalists, but most are, or are heavily influenced by them and their culture.

(08-31-2019, 02:21 AM)grympy Wrote: Australians can't really point any fingers .Our Current Prime Minster ,Scott Morrison  is a happy clapper (Pentacostal) . He has been kept very busy recently, because when a crisis occurs, he
prays.  I shit you not.  Like  Donald Trump, but  too fucking sincere and ethical for words.

That I didn't vote for the shower of whom he is leader, is cold comfort. The cunt scares me to death.  

I revert to one of my own aphorisms :  "Beware of the true believer. They are naive at best,  dangerous at worst"

I often think that Trump's saving grace is that he's not remotely devout, plus he's cowardly and inept and a seriously decompensating late-stage malignant narcissist. This makes it clear that he's 100% bullshit, all the time. At least you know what you're dealing with. A devout theist who knows how to keep up appearances can be committing all sorts of perfidy with minimal self-awareness and lots of outward piety.

On the other hand, Trump is doing massive and systematic damage to civil society, even if openly. Literally not a day goes by without reports of some long-standing precedent being overturned, some new group being harmed. Just this past week, he revoked deportation protections against children with fatal illnesses and began exploring opening our largest national forest (a totally pristine area in southeastern Alaska) to logging concerns.

I get the impression that the damage done by people like your PM is necessarily slower and more covert and can be in principle undone by the next administration. On the other hand if Trump's polar opposite were elected next year, and had executive orders rescinding all of Trump's executive orders all queued up on day one, it will just be the beginning of an effort to rebuild democratic institutions that will involve at least a full generation. Too many career government workers have quit in disgust, taken early retirement, or been actively banished; too many of them will not be back. Institutional memory and experience are too impaired. America has, in my view, become a failed state.
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Quote: America has, in my view, become a failed state.



[Image: pogo-met-the-enemy.0.1505425927.0.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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(08-31-2019, 04:24 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: America has, in my view, become a failed state.



[Image: pogo-met-the-enemy.0.1505425927.0.jpg]

 Fuuuuck! The idea of America failing as a state doesn't bear thinking about.  Geez I hope it survives until after I'm gone.  Could be a close thing. 

The US is I think the world's largest debtor.  If  it even totters a bit there will be a catastrophic world depression. Combine that with the effects of climate change, and you have some very interesting times ahead. 


 Reminds me of this: "May you live in interesting times"  (Chinese curse)
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The "myth" of the dying church
(08-31-2019, 10:29 PM)grympy Wrote: Fuuuuck! The idea of America failing as a state doesn't bear thinking about.  Geez I hope it survives until after I'm gone.  Could be a close thing. 

It doesn't necessarily mean a financial collapse as such. Good article on the topic:

https://eand.co/why-were-underestimating...04d9e55235
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