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The savior according to Judaism
#1

The savior according to Judaism
I understand that Jesus was not considered the Christ for whom the Jewish were waiting.

My question, rather, is do the Jewish ever expect their savior to make an appearance?

Or is it that at this point, the savior of the Jews is as likely as the second coming of Christ for christians?
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#2

The savior according to Judaism
What’s this? An open question about Judaism?

Any religious denomination in Judaism is definitely expecting the Jewish Messiah to show up. Even partially religious denominations have this expectation, and irreligious denominations either have this hope or have shifted the goal posts to include a broader understanding of the messianic era.

The Christian messiah performs cool “miracles” that dazzle the eye and he plagiarizes Jewish teachings as though they were his own work. The Christian messiah has special properties such as being a deity in human flesh, being born of a virgin, and rising from the dead. The Jewish Messiah is just a guy who lives and dies and has no special properties other than key identifying factors. The Jewish expectation for a messiah is much less about the person, and much more about the era he will usher in. The Messianic era is the goal, not the person who performs the task. Though such emphasis is placed on finding the person so as to facilitate them in fulfilling the goal.

The goal is world peace, living in a society of open miracles (which does not mean to Jews what it means to Christians), universal adherence to laws, and universal understanding of G-d (again, in no way compares to how Christians would interpret that). The bottom line is that the Jewish Messianic Era is a safe place for everyone with law-abiding, conscientious citizens and it will include learning and growth and abundance of material goods to unburden our lives.

The Jewish Messiah is a much more tangible and recognizable through evidence provided in the natural world than the Christian messiah, which calls for faith and following to accept.
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#3

The savior according to Judaism
He's got a big job ahead of him if and when he does get his ass down here.

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

Quote:The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).


From their own bullshit story it can be seen that Cyrus the Great got as close as anyone having hit numbers 1, 3 and 4 to one degree or another.

Jesus, like a piss-poor ballplayer, went 0 for 4.  No wonder they nailed the motherfucker up!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#4

The savior according to Judaism
Funny how mankind itself as a whole body is realizing most of those goals without needing the leadership of a single personality to achieve them.  Those messiahs in the wings haven't seen any need to step on stage for thousands of years; it's hard to imagine what extreme calamity would befall mankind that hasn't derailed us yet that only a single personality would have the faculty to put right.  It's been by abandonment of the single leader model and embrace of democratization that we flourish.
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#5

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 05:29 PM)airportkid Wrote: Funny how mankind itself as a whole body is realizing most of those goals without needing the leadership of a single personality to achieve them.  Those messiahs in the wings haven't seen any need to step on stage for thousands of years; it's hard to imagine what extreme calamity would befall mankind that hasn't derailed us yet that only a single personality would have the faculty to put right.  It's been by abandonment of the single leader model and embrace of democratization that we flourish.

Good point.  The requirements of a messiah are so overarching and complex that only great numbers of people working over long periods of time could possibly achieve and maintain them.

And even then, they must be reinterpreted to align with our modern discoveries.
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#6

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 05:29 PM)airportkid Wrote: Funny how mankind itself as a whole body is realizing most of those goals without needing the leadership of a single personality to achieve them.  Those messiahs in the wings haven't seen any need to step on stage for thousands of years; it's hard to imagine what extreme calamity would befall mankind that hasn't derailed us yet that only a single personality would have the faculty to put right.  It's been by abandonment of the single leader model and embrace of democratization that we flourish.

I give you.... Trump! The single calamity that is bringing down humanity. 

Yeah, some branches of Judaism see the Messiah as a generation of people rather than a single person.
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#7

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 05:32 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 05:29 PM)airportkid Wrote: Funny how mankind itself as a whole body is realizing most of those goals without needing the leadership of a single personality to achieve them.  Those messiahs in the wings haven't seen any need to step on stage for thousands of years; it's hard to imagine what extreme calamity would befall mankind that hasn't derailed us yet that only a single personality would have the faculty to put right.  It's been by abandonment of the single leader model and embrace of democratization that we flourish.

Good point.  The requirements of a messiah are so overarching and complex that only great numbers of people working over long periods of time could possibly achieve and maintain them.

And even then, they must be reinterpreted to align with our modern discoveries.

The reinterpretation is no problem in Jewish thought. Some groups are more resistant than others, but if the truth is in front of your face, reinterpretation is the only way to hold onto your past ideals.
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#8

The savior according to Judaism
The day any imaginary deity pops up in front of me, I'll drop me dacks on the Sydney harbour bridge... in peak hour.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#9

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 07:27 PM)SYZ Wrote: The day any imaginary deity pops up in front of me, I'll drop me dacks on the Sydney harbour bridge... in peak hour.

Why would a deity, imaginary or otherwise pop up in front of you?

Tell you what. If that ever happens to you, I'll be a friend and help you check into a good facility that can get you sorted out. Tongue
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#10

The savior according to Judaism
[Image: moshiachisherebillboard_1.jpg]


No, Moshiach is dead.

Moshiach is still dead.

The fucker is going to stay dead.

But at least he WAS alive once....unlike fucking jesus!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#11

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 08:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: [Image: moshiachisherebillboard_1.jpg]


No, Moshiach is dead.

Moshiach is still dead.

The fucker is going to stay dead.

But at least he WAS alive once....unlike fucking jesus!
I cannot tell you how truly much I loathe the Rebbe. The Jesusification of that man was sickening.
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#12

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 08:25 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 08:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: [Image: moshiachisherebillboard_1.jpg]


No, Moshiach is dead.

Moshiach is still dead.

The fucker is going to stay dead.

But at least he WAS alive once....unlike fucking jesus!
I cannot tell you how truly much I loathe the Rebbe. The Jesusification of that man was sickening.

Never heard of him.  Tongue
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#13

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 09:08 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 08:25 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 08:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: [Image: moshiachisherebillboard_1.jpg]


No, Moshiach is dead.

Moshiach is still dead.

The fucker is going to stay dead.

But at least he WAS alive once....unlike fucking jesus!
I cannot tell you how truly much I loathe the Rebbe. The Jesusification of that man was sickening.

Never heard of him.  Tongue

He's the reason we have television! He's the reason we have holiday breaks in schools. He foresaw all that is good and he knew exactly how to use the technologies and social advancement for the good of all mankind!

Hail the Rebbe! Moshiach now, Moshiach forever!

Poop-1
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#14

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 09:08 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 08:25 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 08:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: [Image: moshiachisherebillboard_1.jpg]


No, Moshiach is dead.

Moshiach is still dead.

The fucker is going to stay dead.

But at least he WAS alive once....unlike fucking jesus!
I cannot tell you how truly much I loathe the Rebbe. The Jesusification of that man was sickening.

Never heard of him.  Tongue

I never have either.  Who is this guy and what am I missing?
                                                         T4618
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#15

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 09:14 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 09:08 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 08:25 PM)Aliza Wrote: I cannot tell you how truly much I loathe the Rebbe. The Jesusification of that man was sickening.

Never heard of him.  Tongue

He's the reason we have television! He's the reason we have holiday breaks in schools. He foresaw all that is good and he knew exactly how to use the technologies and social advancement for the good of all mankind!

Hail the Rebbe! Moshiach now, Moshiach forever!

Poop-1

You seem pretty enthralled with this guy.  Big Grin
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#16

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 08:25 PM)Aliza Wrote: I cannot tell you how truly much I loathe the Rebbe.
More or less than you loathe Jesus, may his name be forever blotted from the book of life? Angel
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#17

The savior according to Judaism
A dead Lubavitch rabbi.  Somehow the fuckers got it in their head that he was the Messiah.  They were as stupid as he was.



[Image: funeral-at-lubavitcher-hq-for-yeshiva-st...=2048x2048]


They seem quite suprised that he is still buried!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#18

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 09:51 PM)Vera Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 08:25 PM)Aliza Wrote: I cannot tell you how truly much I loathe the Rebbe.
More or less than you loathe Jesus, may his name be forever blotted from the book of life?  Angel

Actually, less than I loathe Jesus. He was, after all, a real person. He was also not a bad or malicious person. I hate how zealous his followers were/are but I recognize that the Messianic fervor surrounding him has died down considerably.

... But people still do think the Rebbe was responsible for the colors in the rainbow. (Okay, that's an exaggeration)
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#19

The savior according to Judaism
So I take it, according to some crazy people, he was the messiah?  Let's see..... where have I heard this story before?  Hmm
                                                         T4618
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#20

The savior according to Judaism
It does sound vaguely familiar.

[Image: he-has-risen-to-middle-management-jesus-...299964.png]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#21

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 10:18 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: So I take it, according to some crazy people, he was the messiah?  Let's see..... where have I heard this story before?  Hmm

No significant numbers of Jews believe that the Rebbe was the Messiah, but they did believe it at a previous time. And to be fair, in Judaism, there is nothing wrong with thinking someone (who is alive) is the messiah. It's like believing in your heart of hearts that Hillary Clinton was going to be the first female president of the United States. When the election results came out, it was clear that she was not.

Very small numbers of Lubavitcher Jews may believe the Rebbe will return from the dead, but these are not mainstream beliefs even in that particular movement. (The Rebbe was from the Lubavitcher movement, so only his followers ever believed this in the first place).
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#22

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 10:14 PM)Aliza Wrote: Actually, less than I loathe Jesus. He was, after all, a real person.

Now, now, careful lest we summon the ghost of Aractus Angel

(Though, to be fair, most scholars do seem to think that *your* favourite fictional character *is* based on a real person.)
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#23

The savior according to Judaism
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

So I disagree that the concept of "mashiach" was always a traditional part of Judaism.
If some of the functions of this human person, were restoring worship in the temple, and restoring the kingdom, then while those things were still actually in place, why would there be any need for one ? It obviously developed later and had different iterations. In Isaiah, the "suffering servant" idea is FAR different that a charismatic political leader.
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#24

The savior according to Judaism
(07-28-2019, 10:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote: It does sound vaguely familiar.

[Image: he-has-risen-to-middle-management-jesus-...299964.png]

The Greek word is "exalted", (not "risen"), just like all the other Jewish apocalyptic heroes were "exalted", (ie the seven sons of Hannah etc etc).
The Greek word is the SAME word used in Luke when Simeon said about the child when he was "presented" in the temple : "This child shall be responsible for the "rise and fall" of many in Israel. It's a change of relative position, (not "rising from the dead").
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#25

The savior according to Judaism
(07-29-2019, 02:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(07-28-2019, 10:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote: It does sound vaguely familiar.

[Image: he-has-risen-to-middle-management-jesus-...299964.png]

The Greek word is "exalted", (not "risen"), just like all the other Jewish apocalyptic heroes were "exalted", (ie the seven sons of Hannah etc etc).
The Greek word is the SAME word used in Luke when Simeon said about the child when he was "presented" in the temple : "This child shall be responsible for the "rise and fall" of many in Israel. It's a change of relative position, (not "rising from the dead").

Are scholars able to trace the metamporphesis, or the specific  mistranslation, of this word, "exalted"?  Mark doesn't have a post resurrected Jesus,  Matthew and the others do.    How did all this go down?
                                                         T4618
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