Posts: 847
Threads: 39
Likes Received: 1,231 in 582 posts
Likes Given: 3,156
Joined: Apr 2019
Reputation:
44
06282019, 05:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 06282019, 05:09 AM by Jenny.)
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
I was watching a documentary on mathematics and in it the filmmakers discuss the idea that there has been some debate over whether or not math was invented (by us), discovered (by us), or a combination of both.
I added the “by us” in parentheses because apparently there are some theists such as William Lane Craig who are of the belief that since math is so useful (almost mysteriously useful) in describing the universe therefore god.
Anyway, poll question and thoughts.
The following 1 user Likes Jenny's post:
• Vera
Posts: 4,243
Threads: 311
Likes Received: 6,380 in 2,462 posts
Likes Given: 6,711
Joined: Oct 2018
Reputation:
45
06282019, 05:09 AM
(This post was last modified: 06282019, 05:12 AM by Phaedrus.)
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
Invented by us, the same as language. For math is merely a numerical language.
Those who rely on mathematics for truths of reality are no more deranged than most philosophers.
Posts: 1,640
Threads: 17
Likes Received: 2,058 in 931 posts
Likes Given: 3,521
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
21
06282019, 05:22 AM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
I put forth it is truth, and has been discovered independently in many places around the globe.
For example, the Pythagorean theorem predated Pythagoras, dating back to Mesopotamia a thousand years before his time.
The same truths were discovered in both China and India.
The Mayans had a completely independent and unique math.
Posts: 4,921
Threads: 152
Likes Received: 6,191 in 2,872 posts
Likes Given: 1,428
Joined: Jan 2019
Reputation:
29
06282019, 05:25 AM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
I always thought math was invented as a torture device.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Posts: 5,715
Threads: 11
Likes Received: 4,424 in 2,309 posts
Likes Given: 2,580
Joined: Dec 2018
Reputation:
32
06282019, 05:34 AM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
I'm not sure that's a valid dichotomy. Beyond that, I punt.
Posts: 2,462
Threads: 97
Likes Received: 4,345 in 1,531 posts
Likes Given: 2,656
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
62
06282019, 06:18 AM
(This post was last modified: 06282019, 06:19 AM by Vera.)
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
That's actually very interesting (I have a couple of documentaries on mathematics I'd like to watch, but not sure when I'll find the time). Anyway, I was leaning more to a mixture of both leaning more towards discovered.
Read a bit (too late to read more but will tomorrow!) and this sounds very reasonable to me: "Indeed, I posit that humans invent the mathematical concepts—numbers, shapes, sets, lines, and so on—by abstracting them from the world around them. They then go on to discover the complex connections among the concepts that they had invented; these are the socalled theorems of mathematics."
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?”
Posts: 2,457
Threads: 30
Likes Received: 2,897 in 1,387 posts
Likes Given: 2,932
Joined: Dec 2018
Reputation:
24
06282019, 11:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 06282019, 11:05 AM by brewerb.)
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
I think it was evolved. As a species we were probably doing math before we knew what we were doing.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
Posts: 5,954
Threads: 16
Likes Received: 8,590 in 3,776 posts
Likes Given: 9,523
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
49
06282019, 12:24 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
I vote both.
Posts: 769
Threads: 19
Likes Received: 1,252 in 544 posts
Likes Given: 790
Joined: Oct 2018
Reputation:
31
06282019, 12:57 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
(06282019, 05:04 AM)Jenny Wrote: I was watching a documentary on mathematics and in it the filmmakers discuss the idea that there has been some debate over whether or not math was invented (by us), discovered (by us), or a combination of both.
I added the “by us” in parentheses because apparently there are some theists such as William Lane Craig who are of the belief that since math is so useful (almost mysteriously useful) in describing the universe therefore god.
Anyway, poll question and thoughts.
That's an interesting idea, as one could argue that if there is life out there, do they have math? One would think so, in a purely human logic based sense. For example: You have "numbers" that have a certain value and you use that to extrapolate to a certain alternate value such as higher numbers/distance/weight/etc . So in theory even if 1 CM was equal to "300 Sqaulects" [from another world/life forms culture] you could still use the same process of math to work something out, logically at least.
I personally think it was 'discovered' by humans, as under the above example, the process of math can be used under any number/value based system, potentially across the universe.
Posts: 459
Threads: 3
Likes Received: 291 in 187 posts
Likes Given: 126
Joined: Dec 2018
Reputation:
7
06282019, 01:41 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
Both for me as well. Seems like they discovered the principles, and then created a way to describe them.
Posts: 2,128
Threads: 6
Likes Received: 2,031 in 938 posts
Likes Given: 0
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
27
06282019, 01:48 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
I agree with what jerry stated. It's pretty much the language of the natural sciences around us. We just had to translate it.
Posts: 4,094
Threads: 85
Likes Received: 4,496 in 2,173 posts
Likes Given: 4,681
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
32
06282019, 01:48 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
(06282019, 05:04 AM)Jenny Wrote: ...there are some theists such as William Lane Craig who are of the belief that since math is so useful (almost mysteriously useful) in describing the universe therefore god.
Speaking of maths and Billy Craig in the same breath leads me to bring up this old bit of biblical bullshit...
1 Kings 7:23 (King James)
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about,
and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
According to the "inerrant" Abrahamic bible, PI is equal to exactly three.
God doesn't lie, so because God revealed that PI is in fact 3, we should alter our scientific usage of this ratio
accordingly. Over to you Billy.
I'm a creationist; I believe that man created God.
Posts: 364
Threads: 3
Likes Received: 707 in 269 posts
Likes Given: 582
Joined: Oct 2018
Reputation:
16
06282019, 02:01 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
(06282019, 05:09 AM)Phaedrus Wrote: Invented by us, the same as language. For math is merely a numerical language.
Those who rely on mathematics for truths of reality are no more deranged than most philosophers.
Yep. A special case of language in general.
If it doesn't work, it doesn't matter how fast it doesn't work. ~ ???
Posts: 2,464
Threads: 32
Likes Received: 3,646 in 1,578 posts
Likes Given: 4,260
Joined: Nov 2018
Reputation:
38
06282019, 02:01 PM
(This post was last modified: 06282019, 02:02 PM by Mark.)
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
The big ideas of math are discovered but the means of expressing them are invented. Sometimes the symbols and conventions that are invented to represent mathematical truths lead to the discovery of other mathematical truths. So what we invent is also useful.
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's.
―F. D.
The following 1 user Likes Mark's post:
• Jenny
Posts: 847
Threads: 39
Likes Received: 1,231 in 582 posts
Likes Given: 3,156
Joined: Apr 2019
Reputation:
44
06282019, 02:33 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
(06282019, 06:18 AM)Vera Wrote: That's actually very interesting (I have a couple of documentaries on mathematics I'd like to watch, but not sure when I'll find the time). Anyway, I was leaning more to a mixture of both leaning more towards discovered.
Read a bit (too late to read more but will tomorrow!) and this sounds very reasonable to me: "Indeed, I posit that humans invent the mathematical concepts—numbers, shapes, sets, lines, and so on—by abstracting them from the world around them. They then go on to discover the complex connections among the concepts that they had invented; these are the socalled theorems of mathematics."
I think that’s from the doc I watched on Nova, “The Great Math Mystery.”
Posts: 829
Threads: 8
Likes Received: 1,478 in 609 posts
Likes Given: 1,955
Joined: Nov 2018
Reputation:
25
06282019, 06:02 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
(06282019, 01:48 PM)SYZ Wrote: (06282019, 05:04 AM)Jenny Wrote: ...there are some theists such as William Lane Craig who are of the belief that since math is so useful (almost mysteriously useful) in describing the universe therefore god.
Speaking of maths and Billy Craig in the same breath leads me to bring up this old bit of biblical bullshit...
1 Kings 7:23 (King James)
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about,
and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
According to the "inerrant" Abrahamic bible, PI is equal to exactly three.
God doesn't lie, so because God revealed that PI is in fact 3, we should alter our scientific usage of this ratio
accordingly. Over to you Billy.
It gets worse. At the time the "inspired word" was being made up recorded, the Egyptians had already calculated Pi to 3 or 4 decimal places. Not only did gawd's mortal spokesmen gawd get it wrong, mere humans of the time were getting it right.
Posts: 1,237
Threads: 66
Likes Received: 1,967 in 831 posts
Likes Given: 4,218
Joined: Oct 2018
Reputation:
25
06282019, 06:19 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
If we discovered math, where was it 10bio years ago, long before our solar system (and humans or their ancestors) existed?
cetero censeo religionem esse delendam
Posts: 1,640
Threads: 17
Likes Received: 2,058 in 931 posts
Likes Given: 3,521
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
21
06282019, 06:23 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
waiting
He he he
<beavis>
Posts: 2,398
Threads: 71
Likes Received: 4,664 in 1,768 posts
Likes Given: 3,576
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
34
06282019, 06:33 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
I never paid much attention in math class so I really don't know.
Don't know much about geography
Don't know much trigonometry
Don't know much about algebra
Don't know what a slide rule is for
But I do know that one and one is two
And if this one could be with you
What a wonderful world it would be....
Posts: 706
Threads: 4
Likes Received: 87 in 54 posts
Likes Given: 50
Joined: Nov 2018
Reputation:
8
06282019, 07:23 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
It was definitely not invented. The relationship between the sides of a triangle are there regardless if someone is there to perceive it or not. Therefore, it was discovered. The entire universe is constructed in a common language: mathematics. If humans did not exist, it would still operate according to its laws which can only be described mathematically. If the correct word is 'described', then 'invented' is the wrong concept.
Nearly all of science depends on mathematics. We cannot do science unless we understand it. We assume the truth of mathematical principles and that we can describe the entire world with them BEFORE we start. If we do that before we start, we have committed to the ontological nature of mathematicsin other words, that it can be used to describe reality. That is different than we are going to investigate reality and then describe it mathematically.
Posts: 1,925
Threads: 6
Likes Received: 2,244 in 1,086 posts
Likes Given: 582
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
29
06282019, 08:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 06282019, 08:59 PM by Bucky Ball.)
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
There are known relationships between objects and concepts, (which at some point were discovered). Math is a language invented to describe those relationships. For example if someone with no knowledge of math has 4 apples, he wouldn't know that he should call the sum "four", but he might understand that he had enough to give one to each of his children, (if he has four). It's a learned skill, like language is learned. Higgs didn't discover his boson because the math was "lurking" in his brain, and ready to be discovered, .... he predicted it because the relationships that are described by other tested and verified relationships, described by math, were seen to have another relationship, which he could describe by his new math. The equation is not "magically just there", (as Craig implies) ... it describes a relationship, or set of relationships, and there easily may be better equations which more accurately describe the picture which will be seen later.
The relationships between the sides of a triangle vary according to what sort of triangle it is. Math was definitely invented. The relationships found in nature could be described in all kinds of ways.
It was invented to describe the relationships found in nature. There are all sorts of maths. Base 2, base 5 etc etc etc. There is no ONE kind of math. If humans did not exist the RELATIONSHIPS would still exist. The math would not. We know the history of the development of the math "language". We know when various cultures realized that a more accurate description of nature would be by adding the concept of "nothing", (zero) and added that concept to their maths. It DEVELOPED.
Posts: 847
Threads: 39
Likes Received: 1,231 in 582 posts
Likes Given: 3,156
Joined: Apr 2019
Reputation:
44
06282019, 08:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 06282019, 08:37 PM by Jenny.)
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
(06282019, 07:23 PM)SteveII Wrote: It was definitely not invented. The relationship between the sides of a triangle are there regardless if someone is there to perceive it or not. Therefore, it was discovered. The entire universe is constructed in a common language: mathematics. If humans did not exist, it would still operate according to its laws which can only be described mathematically. If the correct word is 'described', then 'invented' is the wrong concept.
Nearly all of science depends on mathematics. We cannot do science unless we understand it. We assume the truth of mathematical principles and that we can describe the entire world with them BEFORE we start. If we do that before we start, we have committed to the ontological nature of mathematicsin other words, that it can be used to describe reality. That is different than we are going to investigate reality and then describe it mathematically.
While physics uses math, there are aspects of science where math doesn't work as wellsuch as in the fields of meteorology and in certain areas of biology. There also fields of science that don't really require a heavy math background such as in the field of geology for example.
I thought the doc I watched was interesting and I think Stephen Wolfram in the documentary said it best "I think it's an illusion because I think what's happened is that people have chosen to build physics using the mathematics that has been practicedhas developed historicallyand then they're looking at everything and they are choosing to study things that are amenable to study using the mathematics that happens to have arisen. But actually there's a whole vast ocean of other things that are really quite inaccessible to those methods."
Posts: 1,237
Threads: 66
Likes Received: 1,967 in 831 posts
Likes Given: 4,218
Joined: Oct 2018
Reputation:
25
06282019, 08:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 06282019, 08:50 PM by Deesse23.)
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
(06282019, 07:23 PM)SteveII Wrote: It was definitely not invented. The relationship between the sides of a triangle are there regardless if someone is there to perceive it or not. Math is not the relationship of a triangle. Math is the tool to describe the relationship of a triangle.
cetero censeo religionem esse delendam
Posts: 2,883
Threads: 27
Likes Received: 2,127 in 1,207 posts
Likes Given: 1,810
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
37
06282019, 09:32 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
(06282019, 06:18 AM)Vera Wrote: ... this sounds very reasonable to me: "Indeed, I posit that humans invent the mathematical concepts—numbers, shapes, sets, lines, and so on—by abstracting them from the world around them. They then go on to discover the complex connections among the concepts that they had invented; these are the socalled theorems of mathematics."
Reasonable to me too. Basically just subtract human minds. A million years ago an atomic explosion would explode just as it would today with the right collection and interaction of elements. But aliens on another planet might express it as "YYie7*Bzzzzt$^@=kablooey"
Posts: 4,094
Threads: 85
Likes Received: 4,496 in 2,173 posts
Likes Given: 4,681
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation:
32
06292019, 02:00 PM
Do you think Math was discovered, invented, or both?
Maths can be super confusing though...
I'm a creationist; I believe that man created God.
