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Paternity testing.
#1
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Paternity testing.
So, I was talking with a girlfriend the other day, and the talk somehow came around to having kids. I said that I would happily be an active father if I could have a paternity test confirming me as the father.  She asked me if I was serious and I told her “I believe paternity tests should be the standard and that every father has a right to it.” She was like  “why?” And I told her that babies getting switched at birth is a possibility, and the more common occurrence of the man being bamboozled into raising a child that is not actually there. She got offended because she thinks the only reason to get a paternity test is if I suspected she had been unfaithful, which is understandably offensive, but it’s kinda my opinion that guys have no real way of confirming paternity other than “just faith” and that raising and caring for a kid should have more transparency with it that the guy can’t naturally have for biologically reasons. 

So, interesting question to pose. Let’s talk about the ethics and implementation of paternity tests as well as your own personal feelings!
Deadpan Coffee Drinker 
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#2

Paternity testing.
You were talking with a girlfriend? How many do you have?
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#3

Paternity testing.
If you're eventually in that situation and you think you need one, take one. But think twice about telling your partner beforehand. It's a trust thingy.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#4

Paternity testing.
A moot subject as far as I'm concerned, since I had a vasectomy back in the mid-1970's.  Big Grin
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#5

Paternity testing.
I never made a paternity test myself and find the idea ridiculous. What if, by some twist of fate, my daughter had been accidently swapped with another at the hospital? I don't care, the daughter I bonded with, care for and love is the one in my house and I wouldn't ''exchange'' her no matter what. Unless you strongly suspect your partner cheated on you and you want to have some proofs, a paternity test is frankly useless in my opinion.
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#6

Paternity testing.
I think you provided valuable information to this particular girlfriend.  If you don’t care to love and support any child unless it is guaranteed to be your genetic issue, that is an important thing for anyone in a long term or serious relationship with you to understand.  

No, I don’t think paternity tests should be mandatory.  I don’t have a problem with people using them, if the test results have been shown to be reliably accurate.  I don’t know enough about paternity tests to understand whether that is so...since now one can buy them over the counter at the drugstore, I suspect that the accuracy of some may be unreliable.
god, ugh
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#7

Paternity testing.
Mandatory? No, it's not really needed. And even then, what are the ethics of that? Do the hospital just test you while you are there? Do they have to tell you? What happens to the stats on people who are/aren't the real father of the child, is you DNA kept on file somewhere afterwards etc. It raises a lot of questions.

It comes down to trust really. I trust my partner, and overall my family's gene's are very strong so we all look very alike. [Just a few reasons I don't feel the need to go down that route for my own daughter]. However, I will say that if you suspect at any point the child is not your, get a test done ASAP and figure out your options. How that comes into play, I really don't know as I have no idea how much these tests cost or if you can obtain a "free" one through my nations health service; the former I would expect.
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#8

Paternity testing.
I’m not sure if you meant that paternity testing should be the default routine procedure in the hospital when the baby is born, or that it should be mandatory. A big problem with making genetic testing either mandatory or the default procedure in hospitals is that both parents may be concealing from family that the child has borrowed genetic material from donors. 

I think in a hospital, fathers can ask for genetic testing if they like. Fathers can also just by an over-the-counter paternity test kit and do a quick cheek swab if they’re so concerned.

When child support is being demanded, paternity testing should be automatically done at the expense of the parents if the father claims not to be either the biological father of the child and denies any relationship with the child (such as bringing the child up as his own). Bamboozled or not, if the father has been raising a kid for 12 years, that’s his kid. Removing himself from the child’s life both emotionally and financially rightfully should be a difficult process for the well-being of the child.
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#9

Paternity testing.
I think if you are in a long-term relationship with someone (or married) and they've given you no reason not to trust them, I see no point of a paternity test.  In fact, I think it would actually be hurtful to the other partner to suggest one and what would or could be a happy situation for both of you has now turned into something else entirely.  

Imo, if you don't trust the person enough to the point where you would require a paternity test if they got pregnant, then why are you with them? As far as babies getting switched at birth, as EP said, it's such a rare occurence.  However, if that's the only reason you want one (because you're afraid of your baby getting switched), I can see a partner maybe being more on board with that line of thinking as opposed to your questioning whether or not you're the father if you're in a committed long-term relationship/married.  

All of that said, I think if this is loosely your girlfriend or you are both having multiple partners or this is an extremely new relationship and maybe you don't know this person very well but are still having sex, or your long-term partner cheated on you etc. etc....then I think a paternity test is more understandable.
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#10

Paternity testing.
If you really think you would need a paternity test, I'm not so sure having a child in that relationship would be a good idea.
"What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?" -- Frank Herbert
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#11

Paternity testing.
Trust or no trust, that is the question.

IMO, if you can't trust someone, you should not have a baby with them.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#12

Paternity testing.
(05-17-2019, 01:41 PM)epronovost Wrote: I never made a paternity test myself and find the idea ridiculous. What if, by some twist of fate, my daughter had been accidently swapped with another at the hospital? I don't care, the daughter I bonded with, care for and love is the one in my house and I wouldn't ''exchange'' her no matter what. Unless you strongly suspect your partner cheated on you and you want to have some proofs, a paternity test is frankly useless in my opinion.

Babies don't get switched in hospitals any more.
Both the mom and the baby have wristbands, some with chips, which have to match, or all hell breaks out.
Security in maternity centers these days is very tight. They practice "code pinks" routinely, and lock down the units and doors if there is a potential abduction.
At most all the major horsepitals babies "room in" these days, (they stay with mom all the time)  .. I don't think there even is a "nursery" any more.
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#13

Paternity testing.
(05-17-2019, 03:43 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: If you really think you would need a paternity test, I'm not so sure having a child in that relationship would be a good idea.

This was my thinking. You shouldn’t be trying to have kids with anyone if you feel a paternity test should be done at the time of birth. You don’t trust that person enough to try to have kids with them. If you do trust them enough to have kids with them, the idea of a paternity test would be silly to you.

If it was a “whoopsie” thing with someone you wanted to try and make it work with, sure.
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#14

Paternity testing.
If YOU want to take a paternity test, go right ahead. In fact, any man can take one now if he wants.

Don't expect the mother to pay for it or the government to subsidize the test, however. You pay for the tests out of your own pocket.

-Teresa
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
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#15

Paternity testing.
And I agree with the other comments on trusting one's partner. If you view your partner as a potentially cheating harlot, you have problems that won't be solved with paternity tests.

-Teresa
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
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#16

Paternity testing.
Meh, just make an appearance on Maury like everyone else.
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#17

Paternity testing.
Theoretically, If I thought my partner had cheated, or as Jenny had said "if the relationship was very new" then I might consider a paternity test soon after the birth, however if the relationship survived the cheating issue and continued on then I would accept the child completely as mine regardless of biology.

IRL My kids have very strong family traits that cannot be anything but mine. To the point that my wife used to get really pissed off when she'd meet other Filipino's and they'd immediately assume that she was the nanny of a white couple. Chuckle


And as far as some other woman saying that I'm the father of their son or daughter, I can be 100% sure that they would be lying, because it's literally impossible.
_____________________________________________________

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#18

Paternity testing.
Kinda reminds me of the old Dick Van Dyke Show in which "Rob" is convinced that his son was switched at the hospital and invited the parents to come over and get their baby.....


                                                         T4618
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#19

Paternity testing.
(05-17-2019, 05:15 PM)Unsapien Wrote: Theoretically, If I thought my partner had cheated, or as Jenny had said "if the relationship was very new" then I might consider a paternity test soon after the birth, however if the relationship survived the cheating issue and continued on then I would accept the child completely as mine regardless of biology.

IRL My kids have very strong family traits that cannot be anything but mine. To the point that my wife used to get really pissed off when she'd meet other Filipino's and they'd immediately assume that she was the nanny of a white couple. Chuckle


And as far as some other woman saying that I'm the father of their son or daughter, I can be 100% sure that they would be lying, because it's literally impossible.

That's really funny.
There are SO many things all my brothers and sisters share with our parents ... mannerisms, neuroses, traits ... there is no possibility at all,
like ZERO chance, we came from anyone else.
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#20

Paternity testing.
This switcheroo thing just might explain where I came from.
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#21

Paternity testing.
What you're saying, in reality, is that you want a paternity test—not to prove that you're the father—but in
actuality to prove that your girlfriend hasn't been rooting around with other blokes.

If you can't trust your girlfriend's morals, ethics and honesty at this early stage, how on earth do think a
longer relationship, or even marriage, would survive?

And how is it that she, on her part, doesn't get to check whether or not you've been rooting around?

In short; no to paternity testing.  It's patronising, reeks of male chauvinism, and is demeaning for your girlfriend.
And if you pursue this type of thinking, then you're gonna have major problems with every woman you seek a
mutually respectful relationship with.  I have difficulty even seeing you bring up this line of thought.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#22

Paternity testing.
(05-17-2019, 07:26 PM)SYZ Wrote: What you're saying, in reality, is that you want a paternity test—not to prove that you're the father—but in
actuality to prove that your girlfriend hasn't been rooting around with other blokes.

If you can't trust your girlfriend's morals, ethics and honesty at this early stage, how on earth do think a
longer relationship, or even marriage, would survive?

And how is it that she, on her part, doesn't get to check whether or not you've been rooting around?

In short; no to paternity testing.  It's patronising, reeks of male chauvinism, and is demeaning for your girlfriend.
And if you pursue this type of thinking, then you're gonna have major problems with every woman you seek a
mutually respectful relationship with.  I have difficulty even seeing you bring up this line of thought.
For all the relational clusterfucks I've had in my day, I've never had the slightest trust issue over sexual fidelity (in either direction). To me, this level of suspicion / concern either means you're with the wrong person or suffering a good deal of paranoia and personal insecurity. Paternity tests aren't the solution to anything other than paternity lawsuits.
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#23

Paternity testing.
(05-17-2019, 12:57 PM)Atothetheist Wrote: I told her “I believe paternity tests should be the standard and that every father has a right to it.” She was like  “why?” And I told her that babies getting switched at birth is a possibility, and the more common occurrence of the man being bamboozled into raising a child that is not actually there.

You don't get to compare babies getting switched at birth with accusing your spouse of cheating. Don't even try and act like babies getting switched at birth is a valid reason for making sure your kid is yours. You just don't trust your girl and that is all there is to it. Seems like you've never trusted anyone enough since you think the tests should be standard. I feel bad for you. Like others have said, I don't think a child and loving/healthy relationship with the mother is in your cards.

Side note those that said babies don't get switched anymore are pretty accurate. At least when I gave birth last year they tagged me when I went in and then tagged my daughter the moment she was in the clear. It was the kind that had to use a special device to take off. My daughter stayed with me the whole time except when she had to be put under the lamp due to low body temp and that was only a few minutes. There was no nursery. This was at one of the best labor and delivery hospitals in the States.
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#24

Paternity testing.
Cool, a lot of interesting and thoughtful responses, some addressed to me personally.  Smile

I will be responding to as many as I can concerning some of the things that have been said that directly relate to me and I will be talking about some of the concepts that were brought up that more or less discussed the issue in general. I have picked out a series of quotes that I think best represents the general discussion, I apologize if I missed you specifically, just know that if you said anything similar to the stuff below, my reply probably applies. I posted on this because I wanted to hear multiple perspectives and I wasn't disappointed. Feel free to be disappointed in my response though Angel .  So, here goes:

(05-17-2019, 01:37 PM)brewerb Wrote: 5
If you're eventually in that situation and you think you need one, take one. But think twice about telling your partner beforehand. It's a trust thingy.
I don't feel comfortable about NOT talking about it beforehand. If I sprung it on my partner, it would feel a lot worse imo. But that's a personal preference.


(05-17-2019, 01:41 PM)epronovost Wrote: I never made a paternity test myself and find the idea ridiculous. What if, by some twist of fate, my daughter had been accidently swapped with another at the hospital? I don't care, the daughter I bonded with, care for and love is the one in my house and I wouldn't ''exchange'' her no matter what. Unless you strongly suspect your partner cheated on you and you want to have some proofs, a paternity test is frankly useless in my opinion.
Okay, first off, thank you for bringing in this awesome perspective. I think it is awesome that you would care for the child regardless of biology, it is people like you and my parents that took me in and offered me a better life. However, my concern is that I would preferably want it to be your informed choice to raise a child that you aren't the father of. I am NOT against raising children that aren't yours in the sense of blood, I AM against that choice never being given or offered in the first place. In your example, you are placed in such an unfortunate scenario, and that doesn't bother you, but I would love it if you weren't in such a scenario at all, even if it doesn't bother you. Even then, this discussion misses the obvious scenario: Father's being bamboozled into raising children that are not theirs.  

A google search about the percentage of father's raising children that are not theirs talks about this a little bit. It states that some recent studies point to the phenomena as being close to 0%, in a lot of western European countries, it is found to be about 1-2 percent of the population of men are in that very scenario. Now, that's quite low, which is good! But I would argue that even 1% is still to high and even though its rare, the severity of the situation can be damaging to the father. Imagine the emotional turmoil a father might have (I won't say will, because there are people like you out there, where it's no question) upon finding out, that this person that you've been led to believe is a part of you, is not. If we can make that occurrence even closer to zero, I think we owe it to do that. I think father's DESERVE to be given the informed choice to raise a child that is not theirs.
  

(05-17-2019, 04:10 PM)Dom Wrote: Trust or no trust, that is the question.

IMO, if you can't trust someone, you should not have a baby with them.
 
Sex Educator Shere Hite in her book "The Hite Report: A Nationwide Study of Female Sexuality" states that 70% of married women have cheated on their spouses at some point in the relationship. If true, these are NOT good odds, especially for the male. Now, I'm SURE that men cheat to a comparable (higher or lower, but probably not that much) degree, but you have to understand that playing the "trust" game knowing that human's have a propensity to cheat and "step out" and also have a propensity to lie about it sounds like a bad deal, or at least its you being willfully hopeful. A lot of men and women enter into serious relationships with cheaters, a lot of women and men have kids with cheaters and liars. That's reality. 

So, in essence, yes. I do think its about trust, I think that its also about a lot of other things as well. Its about the possible legal ramifications of such an agreement.  In Indiana (the state I live in) , Paternity is established as follows: "A man is presumed to be a child’s father if:
 • He and his wife are married when the child is born; or,
• If the child is born not later than 300 days after the marriage ends. 


If a husband says he is not the child’s father or another man claims to be the child’s father, a court may require a genetic test to determine paternity." -in.gov

If the couple isn't married, the parents both have 72 hours  to sign a paternity affidavit (requires both signatures). I assume there are similar laws in states. To me, these laws leave a lot of room open for exploitation. 

(05-17-2019, 04:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 01:41 PM)epronovost Wrote: I never made a paternity test myself and find the idea ridiculous. What if, by some twist of fate, my daughter had been accidently swapped with another at the hospital? I don't care, the daughter I bonded with, care for and love is the one in my house and I wouldn't ''exchange'' her no matter what. Unless you strongly suspect your partner cheated on you and you want to have some proofs, a paternity test is frankly useless in my opinion.

Babies don't get switched in hospitals any more.
Both the mom and the baby have wristbands, some with chips, which have to match, or all hell breaks out.
Security in maternity centers these days is very tight. They practice "code pinks" routinely, and lock down the units and doors if there is a potential abduction.
At most all the major horsepitals babies "room in" these days, (they stay with mom all the time)  .. I don't think there even is a "nursery" any more.
Interesting! That's a cool solution to the problem that I didn't even think about. A weight has been lifted. 


(05-17-2019, 04:44 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 03:43 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: If you really think you would need a paternity test, I'm not so sure having a child in that relationship  would be a good idea.

This was my thinking. You shouldn’t be trying to have kids with anyone if you feel a paternity test should be done at the time of birth. You don’t trust that person enough to try to have kids with them. If you do trust them enough to have kids with them, the idea of a paternity test would be silly to you.

If it was a “whoopsie” thing with someone you wanted to try and make it work with, sure.
I agree with the second half, especially. Its important for the true paternal father to be financially responsible for the child, and I do believe it is in the child's best interests to know who its actual father is. For health history info as well as just generally to establish a relationship with them. I think a paternity test would help in all categories. 



(05-17-2019, 04:51 PM)Tres Leches Wrote: If YOU want to take a paternity test, go right ahead. In fact, any man can take one now if he wants.

Don't expect the mother to pay for it or the government to subsidize the test, however. You pay for the tests out of your own pocket.

-Teresa

I support the government paying and funding planned parenthood, I should think it should support and fund genetic testing. That's all I really have to say on that topic. I believe abortions and smart family planning, birth control, etc should be easily available for all women to access, and that genetic testing should be easily available for BOTH parent's to access. Accurate and truthful paternity has effects on what resources/benefits the government gives you, and so for what reason should the "government" stay out of it?

(05-17-2019, 05:00 PM)Tres Leches Wrote: And I agree with the other comments on trusting one's partner. If you view your partner as a potentially cheating harlot, you have problems that won't be solved with paternity tests.

-Teresa
Considering the fact that cheating is prevalent and a lot more common than people would like to think, it would be foolish of me NOT to be concerned with whether or not the child is actually mine. I get that people find that offensive, but I see no problem exploring (with my partner's informed knowledge and permission) an avenue to at least make certain that I am not under any illusion about the paternity of the child (suspicious or not)

Here's another perspective as well: We have two parties that have (supposedly) given equal genetic material to the offspring. However, the certainty of that is heavily skewed in favor of the mother. In other words, the only person we know up front for sure is the parent of the child is the mother. This leads to an unfair dynamic. Father's are expected to just "trust" and be happy with being "assumed" to be the father. In fact, I would say that the mother would probably even know who the father is, so one parent is certain of paternity while the other has to rely on the word of the other or the appearance of the child. This to me, doesn't sound like a good system period. At the very least, paternity tests allow fathers the ability to be on an equal understanding with the mother.

When concerning all the benefits, health insurance, life insurance, medical history and government benefits that have to be weighed into consideration, I think its too serious of an issue to NOT allow both parties to be certain.

But hey, that's just a theory. A GAME THEORRYYYY.


(05-17-2019, 05:15 PM)Unsapien Wrote: Theoretically, If I thought my partner had cheated, or as Jenny had said "if the relationship was very new" then I might consider a paternity test soon after the birth, however if the relationship survived the cheating issue and continued on then I would accept the child completely as mine regardless of biology.

IRL My kids have very strong family traits that cannot be anything but mine. To the point that my wife used to get really pissed off when she'd meet other Filipino's and they'd immediately assume that she was the nanny of a white couple. Chuckle


And as far as some other woman saying that I'm the father of their son or daughter, I can be 100% sure that they would be lying, because it's literally impossible.

I bolded the parts I found most interesting. First, let me say that I love that you state you would care for the child regardless of biology, even if it was done so through you being hoodwinked (at least that's how the post reads). I think that is tremendously kind of you. However, I believe that as a person, you should be able to make that choice for yourself, not have it be thrust upon you. Or even worse live with that outcome, but without the knowledge. My argument is never that you should leave and abandon a kid that is not yours, but that a father has the right to willingly and knowingly enter such as dynamic. 


I am happy that you can be certain about your children through appearance. To me, if that satisfies you enough, that's cool! However, some people don't have that luxury. Its more of a "Even if its not my problem, its still something that happens to other people," aspect to me. 
 
(05-17-2019, 10:00 PM)mlmooney89 Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:57 PM)Atothetheist Wrote: I told her “I believe paternity tests should be the standard and that every father has a right to it.” She was like  “why?” And I told her that babies getting switched at birth is a possibility, and the more common occurrence of the man being bamboozled into raising a child that is not actually there.

You don't get to compare babies getting switched at birth with accusing your spouse of cheating. Don't even try and act like babies getting switched at birth is a valid reason for making sure your kid is yours. You just don't trust your girl and that is all there is to it. Seems like you've never trusted anyone enough since you think the tests should be standard. I feel bad for you. Like others have said, I don't think a child and loving/healthy relationship with the mother is in your cards.

Side note those that said babies don't get switched anymore are pretty accurate. At least when I gave birth last year they tagged me when I went in and then tagged my daughter the moment she was in the clear. It was the kind that had to use a special device to take off. My daughter stayed with me the whole time except when she had to be put under the lamp due to low body temp and that was only a few minutes. There was no nursery. This was at one of the best labor and delivery hospitals in the States.

This post is a bit of a tricky one, so much to address, I will bold, italic and underline the corresponding responses and relevant additions.  

Yes, I do. I do get to list that scenario as a possibility and a genetic test to figure out of that possibility. I wasn't comparing them and saying they were equal, I was saying both issues can be addressed with a paternity test. and both can, so I believe I am right to talk about, mention and discuss such a thing. I don't understand why I wouldn't be able to. As Bucky previously mentioned and you followed up with, that possibility is now EXTREMELY unlikely, and so you are right, paternity tests are only one way to address that issue, and there are other solutions that have been effective without them, but don't pretend like a paternity test WOULDN'T be effective in figuring out if the baby was or was not switched at birth. 

You know what, I am generally fine with people being able to extrapolate from my posts what kind of person I am. In fact, I do it as well and I don't blame people one bit for it. Other people on this thread have done that. Some have implied what other's have explicitly stated. However, none of them have stated it in quite a way that you have. So, I'll direct this at you, but know that its not just at you: 

I find it incredibly amusing that I am seen as paranoid or untrusting when I talk about wanting a paternity test standard, its somehow seen as "too far" and "uncalled for", but and that based off of this one view that I have (a view which I believe is based on MORE than just the prevalence of cheating in society, so not JUST because I don't trust my partner), people can make sweeping generalizations about the fate of my life and of my relationships with people. Its almost as if I have personally offended people with my view, like I have personally accused THEM of cheating, or at the very least of me doubting their faithfulness or honesty in that faithfulness, or they feel as if I have this by definition of suspicion of ALL women. I don't and its offensive for you to imply that I do, or that my relationships will fail or that I shouldn't even bothering having children simply because I am concerned about the possibility of getting taken advantage of and lied to. I don't check my partner's phone, I don't go into their social media. I respect their freedom and their privacy. I do trust all my partners (past and present), and yes I have been lied to and cheated on, but I don't hold that against my future partner's. However, I feel as if since the kid is supposedly ours, its my right to know that as a certainty, just as women know it as a certainty. If you want to help change my mind on the issue, by all means. I am more than happy to be convinced. I am young, and I'm sure that when the time comes, I might make a different choice based on my feelings of my partner when I get there, but saying "Oh, you won't even have that in your future with that attitude" is so fucked. I'm sorry that it seems that I have offended you, because I feel as if it is a bit personal, but personal attacks on me and my future or my ability to be happy or make my partner happy cloaked under "hard truths or conclusions based on content" don't contribute to healthy discussion and understanding.

The discussion about ethics I had hoped would illuminate discussions about trusting your partner.  So, in furthering this discussion further. I propose another question, one that I hope you understand don't support, but nevertheless think is worthy to get your opinions on: If you have strong suspicions that your child isn't yours, would it be ethical to get a paternity test without consulting/ knowledge of the partner. 

For me, this is a hard no. Its unethical in anyway to do anything to the child without the partner's permission/knowledge/ or a discussion with the partner, I believe you should ALWAYS talk it out first.  What are all your thoughts on this?
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Paternity testing.
(05-17-2019, 01:34 PM)Mathilda Wrote: You were talking with a girlfriend? How many do you have?

a girlfriend is a way of me referring to a general female friend. I just wanted to be vague and impressive  Angel  








For legal reasons, that's a joke.
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