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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
#51

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 06:46 PM)Dom Wrote: I have a ton to say about all this, but out of respect for Catholic Lady's present hormonal state, I won't. 

I would ask you to reconsider having this conversation with us now, CL. It won't be a good thing for you at all.


I will just say that I would point to biological development of an embryo and that one person does not have a right to force another to follow whatever beliefs. 

But, really, not the topic for a Lady full of pregnancy hormones and love for her own unborn child. It will disturb those blissful feelings you have. Cherish them instead, they are part of the human experience.

Dismissing her opinions because of her hormones ... where have I heard this before?
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#52

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
The last person that tried to kill me was PMSing. I take hormones seriously.
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#53

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 11:02 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 06:46 PM)Dom Wrote: I have a ton to say about all this, but out of respect for Catholic Lady's present hormonal state, I won't. 

I would ask you to reconsider having this conversation with us now, CL. It won't be a good thing for you at all.


I will just say that I would point to biological development of an embryo and that one person does not have a right to force another to follow whatever beliefs. 

But, really, not the topic for a Lady full of pregnancy hormones and love for her own unborn child. It will disturb those blissful feelings you have. Cherish them instead, they are part of the human experience.

Dismissing her opinions because of her hormones ... where have I heard this before?

I am not dismissing her opinions, she had them before she became pregnant. I am worried that this discussion at this time of her pregnancy will disturb her hormonal balance and ruin the happy feeling that comes with the bond she is forming with her unborn at this time. She needs to be a bit selfish right now and nurture herself, this topic is so confrontational and what I would want to say about it would certainly not make her feel good. I respect motherhood and all that comes with pregnancy. It's a good thing to bond before birth.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#54

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 08:02 PM)SteveII Wrote: First, subjugate is the wrong word--it is unnecessarily pejorative. Subordinate is the more accurate term.

The reason why I chose "subjugate" is precisely because abortion opponents are striving to use governmental levers to remove a woman's right to choose what happens inside her own body. "Subordinate" is too weak, with more than a whiff of shilly-shally, because the government is imposing it's view, not offering it. I subordinate desires. I am subjugated when my desires aren't even considered.

I appreciate your attempt at editing, but find it not only unnecessary, but an attempt to spin the conversation. I stand by my verbiage.

(05-16-2019, 08:02 PM)SteveII Wrote:  Second, that logic about "less human" is nonsense (and that is being nice). By that logic, anything that restrict an action (laws for example) make you "less human". You are simply redefining what it means to be human.

No. My point is that an adult woman's rights being subjugated to the putative rights of an unborn reduces her personhood to less than that of a fetus which hasn't even suckled . And in that sense, her humanity is derogated.

I'm cool with forbidding her stealing. I'm not cool with telling her what to do with her uterus.

Quote:Given that conundrum, I myself think that the living, breathing mother should have more say than an abstract valuation assigned to the fetus.

I regard bodily autonomy as the single most important right a human has. The rights of a fetus, which by definition is not autonomous, should not be able to trump that.

(05-16-2019, 08:02 PM)SteveII Wrote: On what foundation is the right to "bodily autonomy" based on? Be specific. Your answer just asserts one right and denies another. Throwing around the word "rights" requires you to have a system that grants them. You need reasons to support these assertions or it is just your opinion.

Without breath, what other right do you have? If you do not have bodily autonomy, then we can talk about slavery, or conscription, or pagan sacrifice. We can talk about movement restrictions and bureaucratic medical decisions. Do you really want to fight over that hill?

If a person is not free to make their own decisions about their own body, they aren't free.

I will ignore your red herring about needing a system to grant rights, because as even a casual reader can see, I haven't argued against regulations. I haven't argued against a system. I've argued against the idea that a government should be able to dictate to its citizens regarding decisions that do not affect others uninvolved in that decision. I'm happy we have regulatory systems, but I see no need to carry that to the point it broaches such private decisions.

Perhaps you're fine with governments making personal decisions for its citizens, but I am not -- because if I don't fight for their rights, I'll probably be losing some of my own rights sooner or later.

Go check out that John Donne poem if you want to understand where I'm coming from.
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#55

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 08:21 PM)Dānu Wrote: I'll also point out that asking whether I'm a moral nihilist or a relativist seems like nothing more than a prelude to an ad hominem.  This isn't about me at all at this point.

Yep. Labels are gold in some circles.
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#56

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 11:38 PM)Dom Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 11:02 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 06:46 PM)Dom Wrote: I have a ton to say about all this, but out of respect for Catholic Lady's present hormonal state, I won't. 

I would ask you to reconsider having this conversation with us now, CL. It won't be a good thing for you at all.


I will just say that I would point to biological development of an embryo and that one person does not have a right to force another to follow whatever beliefs. 

But, really, not the topic for a Lady full of pregnancy hormones and love for her own unborn child. It will disturb those blissful feelings you have. Cherish them instead, they are part of the human experience.

Dismissing her opinions because of her hormones ... where have I heard this before?

I am not dismissing her opinions, she had them before she became pregnant. I am worried that this discussion at this time of her pregnancy will disturb her hormonal balance and ruin the happy feeling that comes with the bond she is forming with her unborn at this time. She needs to be a bit selfish right now and nurture herself, this topic is so confrontational and what I would want to say about it would certainly not make her feel good. I respect motherhood and all that comes with pregnancy. It's a good thing to bond before birth.

I reckon she can judge for herself  what she can and can't tolerate. Bringing it up twice in one post strikes me as poisoning the well a bit, all I'm saying.
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#57

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 11:59 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 11:38 PM)Dom Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 11:02 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Dismissing her opinions because of her hormones ... where have I heard this before?

I am not dismissing her opinions, she had them before she became pregnant. I am worried that this discussion at this time of her pregnancy will disturb her hormonal balance and ruin the happy feeling that comes with the bond she is forming with her unborn at this time. She needs to be a bit selfish right now and nurture herself, this topic is so confrontational and what I would want to say about it would certainly not make her feel good. I respect motherhood and all that comes with pregnancy. It's a good thing to bond before birth.

I reckon she can judge for herself  what she can and can't tolerate. Bringing it up twice in one post strikes me as poisoning the well a bit, all I'm saying.

I worry about her. So shoot me.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#58

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 12:11 AM)Dom Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 11:59 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 11:38 PM)Dom Wrote: I am not dismissing her opinions, she had them before she became pregnant. I am worried that this discussion at this time of her pregnancy will disturb her hormonal balance and ruin the happy feeling that comes with the bond she is forming with her unborn at this time. She needs to be a bit selfish right now and nurture herself, this topic is so confrontational and what I would want to say about it would certainly not make her feel good. I respect motherhood and all that comes with pregnancy. It's a good thing to bond before birth.

I reckon she can judge for herself  what she can and can't tolerate. Bringing it up twice in one post strikes me as poisoning the well a bit, all I'm saying.

I worry about her. So shoot me.

If she wants to talk about it, okay. Reminding readers that she's hormonal is a not-so-subtle way of advising them to disregard her opinion -- whether you realize that or not. Really, just stop it.
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#59

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
And what if you're wrong?
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#60

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
I was raised by strict Catholic parents so I get where you're coming from. My mom took me to see The Silent Scream at the Franciscan university where my dad worked when I was a teenager. When I was 12, we took a bus down to Washington DC on January 22, which is the date of the Roe v. Wade decision. I marched with anti-abortion signs through DC and stood on the steps of the US Supreme Court, listening to Randall Terry give a speech.

After I left the conservative, Catholic bubble and went to Europe and also listened to others with different perspectives, I changed my mind. 

There is a fundamental fear among many - sadly - of women who have control over their own lives. Over how big their families are and when or if to give birth.

Abortion isn't a "women's issue" and framing that way is reductive and dishonest.

Married couples also have abortions and that is because people need to be able to control the size of their families.
I agree with you that single mothers need more support with child-rearing - but so do all parents, especially here in the US. Married moms, married dads, single dads - they all need help with healthcare, child care, access to quality education, etc when it comes to raising kids. Yet the pro-life crowd is dead silent on those things. Have the kid and you're on your own, figure things out for yourself and don't greedily expect anything from society or the government.

Did you know that developed countries that have well-established societal supports in place for children and families have fewer abortions than undeveloped countries that don't have these supports? 

This leads me to think that being against abortion isn't about protecting children but is about keeping women obedient and in their place.

If someone doesn't believe in abortion, the solution is simple - don't have one. It's one thing to not personally want an abortion, it's another thing entirely to push that personal view onto others.

-Teresa
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#61

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
C/L, I love you dearly and am truly delighted that you got your wish to get pregnant and, knock on wood, things are going great for you thusfar.  But, this was your choice and you got to exercise your choice.  Good for you.

However, I still want to know where you get off denying that same right of choice to another woman who may not be in your satisfactory situation?  What business is it of yours if some woman you do not know and will never meet has or does not have a kid that you will have no responsibility for at all, financially or emotionally?

And if you start with the god shit you know where this will go!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#62

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
If you eliminate abortions, adoption does not seems to be the solution. Look at the foster care numbers for children 5yo and less.

Or maybe it's a solution, but only for a small subset.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#63

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 12:24 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:11 AM)Dom Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 11:59 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I reckon she can judge for herself  what she can and can't tolerate. Bringing it up twice in one post strikes me as poisoning the well a bit, all I'm saying.

I worry about her. So shoot me.

If she wants to talk about it, okay. Reminding readers that she's hormonal is a not-so-subtle way of advising them to disregard her opinion -- whether you realize that or not. Really, just stop it.

You are the one dragging this out, you are the one who pulled my comment from a previous page. Just stop it.  Tongue

Doesn't make me worry about her any less.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#64

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 12:48 AM)Dom Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:24 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:11 AM)Dom Wrote: I worry about her. So shoot me.

If she wants to talk about it, okay. Reminding readers that she's hormonal is a not-so-subtle way of advising them to disregard her opinion -- whether you realize that or not. Really, just stop it.

You are the one dragging this out, you are the one who pulled my comment from a previous page. Just stop it.  Tongue

Doesn't make me worry about her any less.

Well, if you'd like me to shut up about it I will. I'm pretty sure I've made a valid point here. You either see it or you don't.
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#65

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 01:20 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:48 AM)Dom Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:24 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: If she wants to talk about it, okay. Reminding readers that she's hormonal is a not-so-subtle way of advising them to disregard her opinion -- whether you realize that or not. Really, just stop it.

You are the one dragging this out, you are the one who pulled my comment from a previous page. Just stop it.  Tongue

Doesn't make me worry about her any less.

Well, if you'd like me to shut up about it I will. I'm pretty sure I've made a valid point here. You either see it or you don't.

I see your point and I see Dom's.  But adey also questioned CL whether this was a good time to talk about this (and he used to be a nurse).  I can only speak for myself, but sometimes when threads get heated over hot button issues (ahem vegan as in my case ha ha) it can lead to all kinds of emotions-including stress.  I'm not going to speak for CL--I mean she did say she might not want to keep up with this thread long term, so it's good she's taking care of her self and protecting herself if things get too heated.  But on the other hand, I agree, each person needs to make their own decisions--regardless of life situations.  I think though, as a friend, it's okay to look out for one another and say hey, are you sure this is a good time for talking about this 'cause I care about you? Anyway, that's my take on things.  

But I'm also hormonal because I'm on my period  Deadpan Coffee Drinker ha ha  Tongue
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#66

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 01:47 AM)Jenny Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 01:20 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:48 AM)Dom Wrote: You are the one dragging this out, you are the one who pulled my comment from a previous page. Just stop it.  Tongue

Doesn't make me worry about her any less.

Well, if you'd like me to shut up about it I will. I'm pretty sure I've made a valid point here. You either see it or you don't.

I see your point and I see Dom's.  But adey also questioned CL whether this was a good time to talk about this (and he used to be a nurse).  I can only speak for myself, but sometimes when threads get heated over hot button issues (ahem vegan as in my case ha ha) it can lead to all kinds of emotions-including stress.  I'm not going to speak for CL--I mean she did say she might not want to keep up with this thread long term, so it's good she's taking care of her self and protecting herself if things get too heated.  But on the other hand, I agree, each person needs to make their own decisions--regardless of life situations.  I think though, as a friend, it's okay to look out for one another and say hey, are you sure this is a good time for talking about this 'cause I care about you? Anyway, that's my take on things.  

But I'm also hormonal because I'm on my period  Deadpan Coffee Drinker ha ha  Tongue

Well, I just hope to hell it's herbal tea in that-thar cup you're drinking, Jenny...... Deadpan Coffee Drinker  .... cause caffeine isn't so good for hormones. It gets ya all riled up and stuff.   Winking
                                                         T4618
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#67

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 01:47 AM)Jenny Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 01:20 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:48 AM)Dom Wrote: You are the one dragging this out, you are the one who pulled my comment from a previous page. Just stop it.  Tongue

Doesn't make me worry about her any less.

Well, if you'd like me to shut up about it I will. I'm pretty sure I've made a valid point here. You either see it or you don't.

I see your point and I see Dom's.  But adey also questioned CL whether this was a good time to talk about this (and he used to be a nurse).  I can only speak for myself, but sometimes when threads get heated over hot button issues (ahem vegan as in my case ha ha) it can lead to all kinds of emotions-including stress.  I'm not going to speak for CL--I mean she did say she might not want to keep up with this thread long term, so it's good she's taking care of her self and protecting herself if things get too heated.  But on the other hand, I agree, each person needs to make their own decisions--regardless of life situations.  I think though, as a friend, it's okay to look out for one another and say hey, are you sure this is a good time for talking about this 'cause I care about you? Anyway, that's my take on things.  

But I'm also hormonal because I'm on my period  Deadpan Coffee Drinker ha ha  Tongue

Confession time: I'm peri-menopausal and also hormonal.  Shotgun Cranky 
And I wouldn't have it any other way.  Angel

-Teresa
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#68

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:07 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Unfortunately, I don't think our society is ready yet to completely outlaw all abortion from one day to the next. As much as I wish it were, it just isn't. It has to be a process. We need to put more emphasis on the consequences of sex, how it isn't something to be taken lightly, and how to avoid pregnancy. We need better care and support for women who find themselves in crisis pregnancies, so that they don't have to worry about a single thing more than that. We need more help for single mothers - health insurance for her and her kid, day care so she can work or go to school, food, shelter, etc. We need an understanding, as a society, the value of human life in all its stages. Not just know that, but understand it - just like we came to understand here in America that blacks are not less human than whites. That process all takes time, education, and proactive work. (And I hate saying that because I think of all the innocent lives that are being lost in the mean time... and yet, it's no skin off my back, because I was out of the womb 33 years ago, so my life is protected now. It makes me feel like I'm saying "it takes time" from a place of privilege because it's not MY right to life that's being taken away.)

First thanks for posting your perspective, now let me point out the fallacies. Firstly termination is a medical procedure, and like all medical procedures it is sometimes a necessity (the same goes for orthodontics and plastic surgery by the way, even though with orthodontics in particular most are not medically required). So the question is how can you possibly regulate a essential medical service and not have unintended negative consequences like in the case of Dr. Savita Halappanavar who was prevented from having a life-saving procedure? What about people who need urgent medical intervention to save their lives but to do so will require a termination, like beginning cancer treatment? Do you really want to have a regulation that tells a woman who's just been diagnosed with stage 3 cancer that she can't begin urgent treatment because she can't terminate the pregnancy? This is a real life situation, there was a case just recently here in Canberra where a lady chose to delay treatment because she was already well into the 2nd trimester (it may have been the 3rd trimester I'm not 100% sure now) when she was diagnosed with stage 3 cancer - she needed donated breastmilk so that she could begin immediate treatment literally the day after giving birth. The important thing is that her medical care was her choice, as it always should be with patients.

I'll describe another medical necessity a case I know about here in Australia - a 10 year old girl was visibly pregnant, which my friends then reported to the authorities. She was being, they suspect, sexually abused by her uncle. A 10-year old cannot safely deliver a baby to full term, it's not safe. They're still a child. Let alone the fact that the pregnancy was most likely incestuous and the result of serious child molestation. A 15 year old might be able to safely deliver a birth, but a 10 year old is simply physically incapable of it, plus they're still growing at a much faster rate than a teenage mother is meaning the foetus is sucking up way more nutrients. If it had been carried to full term the only way for her to have possibly given birth would have been through medical intervention as was the case with a 10-year-old mother in Columbia. We don't know what happened to the girl, but there's very little doubt that she would have had a surgical termination as a medical necessity.

Quote:Am I anti feminist for being pro life? I don't understand this argument because half of all fetuses are girls. Do the feminists not think my little girl has a right to life? What about my half sister's life, when she was almost aborted? No feminists standing up for her rights? Now, it is true that women have a right to not be pregnant if they don't want to be. But it is also true that, as a human being, her fetus has the right to live. When there is a conflict of rights like this, you have to look at both rights to see which right takes precedence over the other. And the right to life trumps all other rights, because without it, no other rights would make sense. The right to life is the most basic and fundamental of all human rights. Emotions aside, at the end of the day, this is really what it comes down to for me.

Yes but there's an equal right to life. A newborn baby and their mother both have an equal right to life, so conversely on the day before birth the foetus and the mother have an equal right to life (this is one reason why late term terminations are only permitted where medically necessary). The right to life isn't greater to either of them - so in the situation I was describing above, where the mother needs to receive urgent medical treatment, she has the right to choose whether it's her life or the life of her unborn baby to prioritise and either option would be absolutely agonising - imagine having to make that choice - but to try and say that the right to life of one overrides the other's right to life is ridiculous.

So secondly, how can you expect a necessary medical procedure to be "completely outlawed"? I get that you don't like it being abused, or used when it doesn't have to be used... so let me ask this question: How are you going to determine which terminations are necessary and which are not?

Thirdly, as pointed out elsewhere, if you do ban it then what happens is desperate people use unsafe methods to attempt terminations: coat hangers, abusing drugs/medications/alcohol, etc.

Fourthly, when exactly do you think a foetus is a "human being"? Because it's certainly not in the first trimester. Life doesn't "begin" at contraception, it doesn't "begin" with God breathing into your nostrils at birth either. I agree that at a certain point a foetus is as human as a newborn, but they're still only a foetus.

And fifthly, finally, why is it that Americans think termination is only about "choosing" to end unplanned pregnancies? That's just one application...
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#69

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
CL I truly appreciate and respect the sincerity and open feelings about the subject, but good Lord I couldn't disagree more. Unlike Native Americans, blacks under slavery, and Jews in the Holocaust, an embryo just doesn't have the capacity to suffer or be conscious of what it is experiencing. It's so not complicated. Let a woman do what she wants with her body (disclaimer: I am squeamish about the very very late term abortions).
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#70

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 01:55 AM)Tres Leches Wrote: Confession time: I'm peri-menopausal and also hormonal.  Shotgun Cranky 
And I wouldn't have it any other way.  Angel

-Teresa


Hey you were aiming right at me!   Panic
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#71

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 02:04 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: I am squeamish about the very very late term abortions).

Which, am fairly certain, only happen for medical reasons and are already deeply sad it's a wanted pregnancy that sadly, has to be terminated. People don't have elective abortions in the last trimester, as far as I can tell.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#72

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 01:47 AM)Jenny Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 01:20 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-17-2019, 12:48 AM)Dom Wrote: You are the one dragging this out, you are the one who pulled my comment from a previous page. Just stop it.  Tongue

Doesn't make me worry about her any less.

Well, if you'd like me to shut up about it I will. I'm pretty sure I've made a valid point here. You either see it or you don't.

I see your point and I see Dom's.  But adey also questioned CL whether this was a good time to talk about this (and he used to be a nurse).  I can only speak for myself, but sometimes when threads get heated over hot button issues (ahem vegan as in my case ha ha) it can lead to all kinds of emotions-including stress.  I'm not going to speak for CL--I mean she did say she might not want to keep up with this thread long term, so it's good she's taking care of her self and protecting herself if things get too heated.  But on the other hand, I agree, each person needs to make their own decisions--regardless of life situations.  I think though, as a friend, it's okay to look out for one another and say hey, are you sure this is a good time for talking about this 'cause I care about you? Anyway, that's my take on things.  

But I'm also hormonal because I'm on my period  Deadpan Coffee Drinker ha ha  Tongue

No doubt CL will speak her piece if she feels like it. I just thought it sounded pretty dismissive and had to pipe up. Pretty 1878 or so, in my book -- "she's hormonal".
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#73

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:16 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Don't like abortions, don't get one.

So much this.

People need to understand that it if doesn't directly affect you, then you have no right to dictate how others live their lives. You don't like something? By all means, have an opinion on it. Just don't infringe on people's freedoms just because you personally feel icky about it. Just because you cannot eat ice cream, because you're on a diet, doesn't mean everyone else has to stop eating ice cream around you.
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#74

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-17-2019, 02:04 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:   I am squeamish about the very very late term abortions).


Doctors do not use that term.  Asshole politicians do.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#75

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
Personally, pro-choice is 100% the way to go. 

Forcing people to have children who are created from rape/incest is just.....wrong, on so many levels. In my opinion. There any MANY other reasons that a person may want an abortion as well, and at the end of the day if all parties involved agree, then it's the best course of action.

There is the obvious discusion to be had of "when is a growth in your stomach considered a 'person' ", which from my understanding this may be something fully considered to be "alive" from week 20. 

THEN you have they old "well if they don't want the baby, give it up for adoption, and there any many parents who can't have babies etc", which to my understanding there are upwards of 400,000 children in the adoption system currently [In the USA].......so there are many children already waiting for a home.

In all honesty, the only view that I can see that anybody who is "pro-life" is giving me is something to do with God.....and it honestly pisses me off that that is even in this discussion. I'm sure some honestly believe this is the right thing to do, without god being involved also, but overall the only stuff I'm seeing/hearing is that "it's all gods plan.....even if babies are made from rape/incest". Yeah? Well Maybe it's your gods plan for the mother to abort this child, and not have to live with the fact she spawned a PERSON that would live on this earth for the rest of the mothers life, that wasn't created from love/Passion, but from Hatred and legitimate evil...and in some cases, have to see their FACE and know it's made partly from them and the person that did this to them. In further cases, imagine if the kid LOOKS like it's rapist father. I mean.......dude.

There are many things to talk about for sure, but for me it's a choice. You either want to keep your child or not. When my wife was pregnant, we were 22 and dumb. She told me, and it was the last thing I expected that day [at that age as well]. But we didn't even consider abortion, because we're a couple who are together. It wasn't "a mistake" or "an accident" more just a couple of kids being together and not taking precautions when we normally did. 9 years later, and my daughter is the light of my life. BUT, if my wife had been raped and was made to give birth to the child.......I'm honestly not sure what the mental anguish of all of that would have done to us as a couple.
"Ah, we’re not going to church today. Fuck that. Ah, it’s all a bunch of bullshit. God’s everywhere, but I gotta go down there to see him? Really? And he’s mad at me down there, and I owe ya money? Go fuck yourself." - Bill Burr
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