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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
#1

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
This issue breaks my heart so much, and is a personal thing for me for multiple reasons that I may or may not get into on this thread. I've mostly avoided this topic for the past couple of years because it's become such a trigger for me, and even seeing thread titles referencing it here makes me flinch. (Yes, I am, as they say a "snow flake"... I know.)  

Weirdly enough, as hard as it is to see/hear stuff about abortion, it's also hard not to say anything when I do. Now that the abortion talk seems to be everywhere (given current events) I'm finally caving and wanted to say some things here. I don't expect to change anyone's mind on the topic (especially not overnight), but I do hope to maybe bring some understanding and offer some perspective, coming from the pro life side of things.

Unfortunately, I don't think our society is ready yet to completely outlaw all abortion from one day to the next. As much as I wish it were, it just isn't. It has to be a process. We need to put more emphasis on the consequences of sex, how it isn't something to be taken lightly, and how to avoid pregnancy. We need better care and support for women who find themselves in crisis pregnancies, so that they don't have to worry about a single thing more than that. We need more help for single mothers - health insurance for her and her kid, day care so she can work or go to school, food, shelter, etc. We need an understanding, as a society, the value of human life in all its stages. Not just know that, but understand it - just like we came to understand here in America that blacks are not less human than whites. That process all takes time, education, and proactive work. (And I hate saying that because I think of all the innocent lives that are being lost in the mean time... and yet, it's no skin off my back, because I was out of the womb 33 years ago, so my life is protected now. It makes me feel like I'm saying "it takes time" from a place of privilege because it's not MY right to life that's being taken away.) 

Am I anti feminist for being pro life? I don't understand this argument because half of all fetuses are girls. Do the feminists not think my little girl has a right to life? What about my half sister's life, when she was almost aborted? No feminists standing up for her rights? Now, it is true that women have a right to not be pregnant if they don't want to be. But it is also true that, as a human being, her fetus has the right to live. When there is a conflict of rights like this, you have to look at both rights to see which right takes precedence over the other. And the right to life trumps all other rights, because without it, no other rights would make sense. The right to life is the most basic and fundamental of all human rights. Emotions aside, at the end of the day, this is really what it comes down to for me.
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#2

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
Where are you getting that a fetus has a right to live from?
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#3

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
I also wanted to add that I don't know how active I'll be on this thread. I don't want to be a troll that does the whole post and run thing, so I'll definitely be active here to some extent, for a while. But I'm just saying now, I don't know that I'll have the emotional energy to respond to every single post for as long as this thread is alive.
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#4

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
Don't like abortions, don't get one.
  [Image: pirates.gif] Dog  
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#5

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:07 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Unfortunately, I don't think our society is ready yet to completely outlaw all abortion from one day to the next.

What is this yet you speak of? Unless we go centuries back as a society abortion is never ever going to be outlawed. Not in the civilised parts of the world anyway. Not sure America (maybe even the Americas) count as such.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#6

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
What the Zilla said.
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#7

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:14 PM)Dānu Wrote: Where are you getting that a fetus has a right to live from?

From the same place that all humans have the right to life. 

Things like slavery, the holocaust, the wiping out of the Native Americans, etc, were all founded on the belief at the time that those people weren't really human or weren't *as* human... and therefore they didn't posses basic human rights. Some of the worst atrocities and crimes against humanity throughout history were done based on the notion that certain groups shouldn't be counted as human beings. I guess we must have a tendency to do that, because it is something that has happened since as far back as we know history. It's a road and a type of thinking that we need to strive to turn away from as we become more civilized and gain a better understanding of the dignity of human life.
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#8

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
There is no conflict of rights only people like you not giving a shit about women health. Abortion is safer than childbirth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22270271/. Therefore by being against it you're putting fetuses over people (actual living people not "entities" that may or may not survive even without medical intervence) in addition to shitting on women right to decide about their own life. 

There is also another thing - banning abortion does not make it disappear. To be crude coat hangers are in many shops and doctors oficially being pro birth (as pro life is laughable attempt at positioning oneself on moral high ground) can choose differently when money start speaking. 

ETA: Comparing abortion to Holocaust? What else but abhorrent idiocy can be expected from catholic. One of XX century worst catastrophes compared to medical procedure is pathetic tactic, even coming from worshipper of genocidal tyrant. 
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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#9

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:16 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Don't like abortions, don't get one.

I've heard this argument as well, and wanted to address it. Since it is a common thing to say. 

The reason this doesn't work for me, is the same reason that saying things like "You don't like slavery? Don't own a slave," doesn't work. I'm actually pretty libertarian when it comes to certain issues. For example, I think prostitution and recreational drug use should be legal. Do I like those things? Do I think they are moral? Would I ever do them? No. But if a grown adult wants to do it, that's their right. I just won't do it myself. Easy peasy. 

But with things like abortion, there is a victim involved. An injustice is being done towards another. It becomes more than simply a matter of me not liking it so I won't do it myself.
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#10

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:26 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 05:14 PM)Dānu Wrote: Where are you getting that a fetus has a right to live from?

From the same place that all humans have the right to life. 

Things like slavery, the holocaust, the wiping out of the Native Americans, etc, were all founded on the belief at the time that those people weren't really human or weren't *as* human... and therefore they didn't posses basic human rights. Some of the worst atrocities and crimes against humanity throughout history were done based on the notion that certain groups shouldn't be counted as human beings. I guess we must have a tendency to do that, because it is something that has happened since as far back as we know history. It's a road and a type of thinking that we need to strive to turn away from as we become more civilized and gain a better understanding of the dignity of human life.

And where are you getting that all humans have a right to life from? That's essentially the same claim in a different form. If fetuses don't have a right to life, then not all humans have a right to life. Since both are essentially equivalent, neither can be justification for the other without begging the question. So, in essence, this is nothing more than saying that fetuses have a right to life simply because you say so. I'm sorry, but that's not good enough. And I haven't disputed that the fetus is human at all. That alone doesn't get you to fetuses having a right to life. It's a common pro-life argument, but it's little more than trying to smuggle your assumptions in by pretending that being human in some sense means you have a right to life. But that is the very issue at stake, so you can't use one to justify the other. And your latter statement is blatant poisoning of the well, implying that anyone who thinks differently than you do is somehow defective.
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#11

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
CL, I have to ask, are you absolutely sure this is a conversation you want need or should be having at the moment?
Justaminute    Salisbury steak...... A hamburger by any other name. 
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#12

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:32 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 05:16 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Don't like abortions, don't get one.

I've heard this argument as well, and wanted to address it. Since it is a common thing to say. 

The reason this doesn't work for me, is the same reason that saying things like "You don't like slavery? Don't own a slave," doesn't work. I'm actually pretty libertarian when it comes to certain issues. For example, I think prostitution and recreational drug use should be legal. Do I like those things? Do I think they are moral? Would I ever do them? No. But if a grown adult wants to do it, that's their right. I just won't do it myself. Easy peasy. 

But with things like abortion, there is a victim involved. An injustice is being done towards another. It becomes more than simply a matter of me not liking it so I won't do it myself.

False equivalence.
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#13

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:26 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 05:14 PM)Dānu Wrote: Where are you getting that a fetus has a right to live from?

From the same place that all humans have the right to life. 

Things like slavery, the holocaust, the wiping out of the Native Americans, etc, were all founded on the belief at the time that those people weren't really human or weren't *as* human... and therefore they didn't posses basic human rights. Some of the worst atrocities and crimes against humanity throughout history were done based on the notion that certain groups shouldn't be counted as human beings. I guess we must have a tendency to do that, because it is something that has happened since as far back as we know history. It's a road and a type of thinking that we need to strive to turn away from as we become more civilized and gain a better understanding of the dignity of human life.

I think equivocating fetuses with adult humans granted the panoply of rights is a mistake. While inside the mother's body, I think the bodily autonomy of an adult trumps the "rights" of a potential human.

If you're going to go with outlawing abortions, at some point you'll need to legally address pregnant mothers who don't maintain lifestyles optimal to the fetal development. What if they don't eat right? Should they then face legal charges as well, because they're depriving humans of a right to food? Would you charge a gravid mother with negligent homicide if she causes an auto accident which results in her miscarriage? Because if you're going to treat the fetus as a fully-entitled human, you're going to have to address these issues, and sell them to voting adults.

Insisting that every woman carry every pregnancy to term, or as close to it as nature allows, by definition subjugates the mother's rights to the fetus. In that sense, it is saying that the woman is less human than the fetus she bears.

Given that conundrum, I myself think that the living, breathing mother should have more say than an abstract valuation assigned to the fetus.

I regard bodily autonomy as the single most important right a human has. The rights of a fetus, which by definition is not autonomous, should not be able to trump that.
<Insert intelligent thought here>
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#14

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
First of all I admit that the whole business of abortion is regrettable and I doubt if anyone has ever gotten one who didn't feel some remorse even if their overall best judgement was on the side of going through with it.

That said, I don't think the lives of fetuses are on par with those of us who have been born. We've reached a level of self sufficiency which makes the taking of our lives harder to justify, though the law may determine that threshold has been reached depending on what transgression I may have committed. The lives of our fetuses are more on the level of the lives of our pets in that they are our dependents. That doesn't mean we are free to abuse them and the law reflects that. Harming either our pets or fetuses is more a matter of policy than rights. They have the rights we wish to bestow on them as they are unable to understand what is at stake and unable to speak for themselves.

You mentioned feminism and that is relevant here. Men and women are both motivated by their bodies natural urges toward sex. We hope to use good judgement in situations where sex may ensue but we don't always. Currently the disincentive for women to risk sex is much higher than it is for men, especially in states which make abortion illegal. When it comes to what the law says we may or may not do with our own bodies, we wish to be as unrestrictive as possible. We also expect that such restrictions affect everyone equally. Prohibition on abortion can never be made equitable between the sexes. I just can't be.

While regrettable abortions may be deemed necessary for the health or well being of the mother. If an unwanted pregnancy should occur at a time that a woman is unwilling to undergo the inconvenience of pregnancy and parenting, I feel her wishes must be respected. I don't want the law to make that imposition on my behalf.
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#15

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
There have been about 60,000,000 legal abortions in the US since the CDC began counting in 1970. If you count the kids some of those would have had we would probably be looking at a population here somewhere north of 400 million.

That would be 600,000 plus more people sitting in jail right now.
12,000,000 plus more people living in poverty.
About 8,500,000 tons of the flesh of other animals consumed each year.
Another 1,500,000,000 tons of CO2 released into the atmosphere every year.

We've got plenty of people.
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#16

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 05:07 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This issue breaks my heart so much, and is a personal thing for me for multiple reasons that I may or may not get into on this thread. I've mostly avoided this topic for the past couple of years because it's become such a trigger for me, and even seeing thread titles referencing it here makes me flinch...

Thank you for posting your open and sincere thoughts on the abortion issues mate.  I for one certainly
respect your personal outlook, and just as I, and many other people support abortion without recrimination,
so do I and (hopefully) they, support your personal ethical and moral right to reject abortion.

I've been in favour of abortion ever since I co-partnered one in 1967.  And, at the same time, I don't have
any particular issue with woman having abortions—as long as it's been given thorough thought by all
involved parties,  and each and every one of the pros and cons for the baby and its mother have been
considered in the cold hard light of day.

In the case of incest or rape, then the foregone conclusion should be that the woman has an unhindered legal
right to an abortion, should she so desire.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#17

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 06:15 PM)PopeyesPappy Wrote: There have been about 60,000,000 legal abortions in the US since the CDC began counting in 1970. If you count the kids some of those would have had we would probably be looking at a population here somewhere north of 400 million.

That would be 600,000 plus more people sitting in jail right now.
12,000,000 plus more people living in poverty.
About 8,500,000 tons of the flesh of other animals consumed each year.
Another 1,500,000,000 tons of CO2 released into the atmosphere every year.

We've got plenty of people.

Not to mention all those souls untainted by worldly sin.
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#18

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
The obsession the right has with other people's sex organs leads to things like this.
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#19

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 06:04 PM)Mark Wrote: First of all I admit that the whole business of abortion is regrettable and I doubt if anyone has ever gotten one who didn't feel some remorse even if their overall best judgement was on the side of going through with it.

That said, I don't think the lives of fetuses are on par with those of us who have been born.  We've reached a level of self sufficiency which makes the taking of our lives harder to justify, though the law may determine that threshold has been reached depending on what transgression I may have committed.  The lives of our fetuses are more on the level of the lives of our pets in that they are our dependents.  That doesn't mean we are free to abuse them and the law reflects that.  Harming either our pets or fetuses is more a matter of policy than rights.  They have the rights we wish to bestow on them as they are unable to understand what is at stake and unable to speak for themselves.

You mentioned feminism and that is relevant here.  Men and women are both motivated by their bodies natural urges toward sex.  We hope to use good judgement in situations where sex may ensue but we don't always.  Currently the disincentive for women to risk sex is much higher than it is for men, especially in states which make abortion illegal.  When it comes to what the law says we may or may not do with our own bodies, we wish to be as unrestrictive as possible.  We also expect that such restrictions affect everyone equally.  Prohibition on abortion can never be made equitable between the sexes.  I just can't be.

While regrettable abortions may be deemed necessary for the health or well being of the mother.  If an unwanted pregnancy should occur at a time that a woman is unwilling to undergo the inconvenience of pregnancy and parenting, I feel her wishes must be respected.  I don't want the law to make that imposition on my behalf.

In reference to your second paragraph: 

I don't see, logically, how level of self sufficiency should determine whether or not a human being has a right to life. I don't see how one thing has to do with the other. There are people who are sick, disabled, etc, who need constant, round the clock care. I am just now, with all my research, learning how much a new born is going to need me, and how completely helpless they are (Joelle is much easier to care for while she's in my womb than she will be when she's out lol). A baby born premature? Even more so, as they need tubes and oxygen masks hooked up to them for months in order to survive. I think you and I can both agree that sick people, newborns, and premature babies all have a right to life, and that taking away their life without their consent isn't something that *we* have a right to do. They are also our dependents, but that doesn't make them less worthy of the fundamental right to life. 

That's why I think the notion that the right to life being dependent on self sufficiency falls apart. Not a single one of us are self sufficient when we are born, and chances are we will be old and sick one day, and need special care. 

As for the rest, I hope I don't come off like I'm undermining how difficult pregnancy is. I know a little bit about that myself lol. Luckily, pregnancy is temporary - nine months. And much less permanent than a death, which is what abortion comes out to.  

I can't speak to how difficult parenthood will be, but from what I've been reading, it's gonna be the hardest thing I'll ever do. Luckily, there are many, many wonderful people ready to adopt babies, if the biological mother doesn't want to, or can't, take on the role of parenthood. I've looked into this quite a bit - seriously, the demand is much higher than the supply, and couples wait for *years* to finally get an adopted baby. 

Again, not to say that any of this is easy on the woman who finds herself in a crisis pregnancy. (My mother was one of them when she was a teenager.) But we are weighing both sides here. Pregnancy is hard, but it is temporary. While death is permanent. Parenthood is hard, but there are many people waiting to take on that role if the biological parents cannot.
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#20

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
Turns out "pro-life" is really often "anti-abortion" mislabeled.
The idiots in Alabama who wanna get em born, and do nothing after the birth to support and educate them, are not pro-life.

First of all, no one should ever need an abortion, except in very rare circumstances.
Use some sort of contraception if you don't want to get pregnant, and PlanB is available without a prescription if you don't.
It's really not complicated. In the Obama administration, when contraception was made widely available, they dropped to a long-time low.

However, a clump of cells with no brain, and not even a neural tube, is not a person. It's a *potential* person.
Granting the same status to that clump as an aware human is just stupid.

In the cases where trisomy or other genetic disorders are found, that should be between the parents and the doctors.
75 % of Americans are in favor of leaving Roe v Wade alone. They can try to manipulate a change where it would be struck down,
but the long term cultural attitudes will out, and prevail at some point. There will be all kinds of abortion "tourism" if one state outlaws it, and one doesn't. As with Georgia loosing all those film projects, women will demand their voices are heard ... one way or another.

Most of the anti-abortion propaganda is based on emotional non-science, and the "immortal soul" thingy. They keep calling a zygote a "baby". It's a constant stream of emotionally charged language, which is actually incorrect.
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#21

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
I have a ton to say about all this, but out of respect for Catholic Lady's present hormonal state, I won't. 

I would ask you to reconsider having this conversation with us now, CL. It won't be a good thing for you at all.


I will just say that I would point to biological development of an embryo and that one person does not have a right to force another to follow whatever beliefs. 

But, really, not the topic for a Lady full of pregnancy hormones and love for her own unborn child. It will disturb those blissful feelings you have. Cherish them instead, they are part of the human experience.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#22

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 06:15 PM)PopeyesPappy Wrote: There have been about 60,000,000 legal abortions in the US since the CDC began counting in 1970. If you count the kids some of those would have had we would probably be looking at a population here somewhere north of 400 million.

That would be 600,000 plus more people sitting in jail right now.
12,000,000 plus more people living in poverty.
About 8,500,000 tons of the flesh of other animals consumed each year.
Another 1,500,000,000 tons of CO2 released into the atmosphere every year.

We've got plenty of people.

This is another argument that never quite made logical sense to me. I mean... you could say the same thing about murder, war, etc. So many people, including babies and children, are killed as a result of violence in this world. We would have many more people populating this planet if no one was ever murdered or killed in war. We nearly wiped out the Native American population here in this country. Millions of people died in the holocaust. And that's just 2 events. Sure, these things result in less world population, but I don't see how this makes it ethical.
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#23

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 06:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Turns out "pro-life" is really often "anti-abortion" mislabeled.
The idiots in Alabama who wanna get em born, and do nothing after the birth to support and educate them, are not pro-life.

First of all, no one should ever need an abortion, except in very rare circumstances.
Use some sort of contraception if you don't want to get pregnant, and PlanB is available without a prescription if you don't.
It's really not complicated. In the Obama administration, when contraception was made widely available, they dropped to a long-time low.

However, a clump of cells with no brain, and not even a neural tube, is not a person. It's a *potential* person.
Granting the same status to that clump as an aware human is just stupid.  

In the cases where trisomy or other genetic disorders are found, that should be between the parents and the doctors.
75 % of Americans are in favor of leaving Roe v Wade alone. They can try to manipulate a change where it would be struck down,
but the long term cultural attitudes will out, and prevail at some point. There will be all kinds of abortion "tourism" if one state outlaws it, and one doesn't. As with Georgia loosing all those film projects, women will demand their voices are heard ... one way or another.

Most of the anti-abortion propaganda is based on emotional non-science, and the "immortal soul" thingy. They keep calling a zygote a "baby". It's a constant stream of emotionally charged language, which is actually incorrect.

Term pro life is nothing more than authoritarian clowns successful attempt at claiming moral high ground and forcing those who actually are pro freedom to defend themselves against bullshit. But such is to be expected, enemies of liberty like to appear noble and pro life sounds far better than pro making women walking incubators. 

Fact that such cheap tactics work fills me with shame - nothing more is needed to take away freedom of others than babbling about murder or daring to compare medical procedure to genocide.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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#24

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
A couple of other have said it, potential vs actualized life. Nuff said.

And cause I can't help myself................

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Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#25

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-16-2019, 06:44 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Pregnancy is hard, but it is temporary. While death is permanent. 


It occurs to me that the real thrust of the pro-life position is that it is anti-killing, and with a few exceptions I think we should all be that.  I think I would call my own position pro-quality of life.  I want every child to grow up in a loving family and free to self determination.  Girl children should not be required to undergo compulsory periods of child bearing in compensation for their and their partner's miscalculation in handling their emerging sexual feelings.
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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