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You would believe in a god if...
#26

You would believe in a god if...
(05-07-2019, 03:09 PM)skyking Wrote: fat, taco-less bucket?

I mean, what better metric could you pick for knowing if there's a god? Some vague feeling you get at church? That one time you found your car keys after praying? Jesus toast?!

Fuck that, give me infinity tacos!
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#27

You would believe in a god if...
Yeah I like that Robbie, and I also like the idea of zapping televangelists. My grandmother lived on our property rent-free, and send a lot of fire insurance to those assholes when I was growing up. It really pissed my dad off.
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#28

You would believe in a god if...
I would believe in god if my parents would indoctrinate me more thoroughly. Alternatively if there would be good evidence for his existence. Or if my hot chemistry teacher from high school came to my house in lingerie and with whip Wink
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#29

You would believe in a god if...
It might be appropriate to understand why other people believe in God (specifically the Christian God).

While not universally true, I believe it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?

It is obvious that we are somehow wired to believe in God/higher power/supernatural/purpose/destiny etc. Of course you will say this is a product of our evolution. There are several theories centered around the adaptive values of religion (social solidarity for one). However, these theories presupose naturalism. So the result of this reasoning is that if God did exist or did not exist, we would still be wired to believe God exists.

I think another reason this resonates with people is Jesus' main message that forgiveness, personal peace, a relationship with God, and eternal life is possible.
a. there are a lot of people, who have had tough experiences that find the forgiveness and internal peace very appealing.
b. when you meet someone who has been a Christian a long time and exemplifies Jesus' teachings and shares how God has been a constant comfort and support to them in their daily lives, it is very appealing.
c. eternal life, how can you beat that? This component also helps you make sense/cope of the shortness of life, tragedies, and pain endured while we are here.

Another appealing quality of Christianity is having the question of purpose and place in the universe answered.
d. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.
e. contrast that with the purpose of man is to "Glorify God and enjoy him forever". We were created for a reason and daily life has purpose and you really want others to know what you have found.

Lastly, Jesus modeled his teachings of love, compassion, and forgiveness for your fellow man and in doing so set an example that, if aspired to, would result in a very fulfilling life. Perhaps you are not old enough, but once you contemplate the brevity of life, finding fulfillment becomes important.

Anyway, food for thought. I won't respond to anything unless it is a serious, civil question.
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#30

You would believe in a god if...
I can't say what would make me believe, but no matter what, I would never respect it!
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#31

You would believe in a god if...
Well, if a guy with an ibis head walked up to me and showed me how to do the magic that makes the universe work....
Don't mistake me for those nice folks from Give-A-Shit county.
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#32

You would believe in a god if...
(05-07-2019, 08:16 PM)SteveII Wrote: It might be appropriate to understand why other people believe in God (specifically the Christian God).

While not universally true, I believe it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?

It is obvious that we are somehow wired to believe in God/higher power/supernatural/purpose/destiny etc. Of course you will say this is a product of our evolution. There are several theories centered around the adaptive values of religion (social solidarity for one). However, these theories presupose naturalism. So the result of this reasoning is that if God did exist or did not exist, we would still be wired to believe God exists.

I think another reason this resonates with people is Jesus' main message that forgiveness, personal peace, a relationship with God, and eternal life is possible.
a. there are a lot of people, who have had tough experiences that find the forgiveness and internal peace very appealing.
b. when you meet someone who has been a Christian a long time and exemplifies Jesus' teachings and shares how God has been a constant comfort and support to them in their daily lives, it is very appealing.
c. eternal life, how can you beat that? This component also helps you make sense/cope of the shortness of life, tragedies, and pain endured while we are here.

Another appealing quality of Christianity is having the question of purpose and place in the universe answered.
d. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.
e. contrast that with the purpose of man is to "Glorify God and enjoy him forever". We were created for a reason and daily life has purpose and you really want others to know what you have found.

Lastly, Jesus modeled his teachings of love, compassion, and forgiveness for your fellow man and in doing so set an example that, if aspired to, would result in a very fulfilling life. Perhaps you are not old enough, but once you contemplate the brevity of life, finding fulfillment becomes important.

Anyway, food for thought. I won't respond to anything unless it is a serious, civil question.

Serious answers as to why you believe in a god are also welcome in this thread as I know there are theists here.  I think you gave some valid responses as to why some people believe in gods as they do.  That said, there are a lot of ex-Christians here (myself included) so I do understand the desire to believe in God/Jesus/etc. as a theist.  

One of the reasons Jesus' teachings resonate with so many is because the Christian religion won out.  A tenet of the Christian religion has always been to spread the Word and to further the Christian religion.  

Re: not being hardwired via evolution for a belief in a god---I can see what you are saying here.  How do we know it was evolution that produced the hardwiring for a belief in god(s)? Maybe it really was God's doing and not an evolutionary trait to enhance survival (apophenia etc, etc, that sometimes causes our brains to get things wrong including a belief in gods as it processes external stimuli).

Anyway Let's go with the "God did it" scenario for a moment: Why is it the Christian God? Why not one of the Greek gods? Or one of the Egyptian god(s) that hardwired us? Why does each culture have their own distinct god and belief system? Why doesn't every culture believe in the same god, the same belief system, and the same book (aka the Bible)? If God did create this hardwiring--wouldn't he also imprint the Bible and the tenets of Christianity somewhere within our psyches as well? Otherwise, we are all just flailing around trying to figure out which of the many gods to believe in thanks to God's hardwiring.  If he truly wanted to have a relationship with us, what better way than to hardwire us for Christianity while he was hardwiring us for a belief in God?
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#33

You would believe in a god if...
Quote:I believe it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?

There is nothing unique in the teachings of Jesus. The "do unto others" and "love your neighbor as yourself" was not unique to his teachings in world religions. 
In general the most reliable predictor of what religion someone would practice is birth family's religion. 
Thus the notion that the determining factor is "drawn to teachings" is false. 
https://www.pewforum.org/2016/10/26/link...-identity/

There are cultures that have no gods. We are not hardwired for anything.
The LONG history of world gods includes every sort of being and nature and weather gods, good and bad. It's hardly "hardwired".
Test
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#34

You would believe in a god if...
Quote:. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?


Maybe because the fucking church tortured and murdered people who resisted?

That's usually how religion spreads.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#35

You would believe in a god if...
(05-08-2019, 12:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
Quote:I believe it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?

There is nothing unique in the teachings of Jesus. The "do unto others" and "love your neighbor as yourself" was not unique to his teachings in world religions. 
In general the most reliable predictor of what religion someone would practice is birth family's religion. 
Thus the notion that the determining factor is "drawn to teachings" is false. 
https://www.pewforum.org/2016/10/26/link...-identity/

There are cultures that have no gods. We are not hardwired for anything.
The LONG history of world gods includes every sort of being and nature and weather gods, good and bad. It's hardly "hardwired".

I think he's talking "hardwired" only in the sense that our brains can sometimes process things incorrectly via pattern making etc. and therefore we *could* see things that aren't really there such as "a face" in the clouds etc. which could lead a primitive culture to think that face must be a god. We were talking in another thread and I used the term "hardwired" to refer to apophenia and things like that--that it's a human trait that we all possess which can sometimes cause us to make incorrect assessments about the world around us. Those incorrect assessments can lead some to think they had a divine experience. As such, I think Steve was making a connection between pattern making etc. and thinking God gave us pattern making abilities--so therefore god.  If I'm wrong Steve, please correct me, but this was my understanding of your post.
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#36

You would believe in a god if...
(05-08-2019, 12:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
Quote:I believe it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?

There is nothing unique in the teachings of Jesus. The "do unto others" and "love your neighbor as yourself" was not unique to his teachings in world religions. 
In general the most reliable predictor of what religion someone would practice is birth family's religion. 
Thus the notion that the determining factor is "drawn to teachings" is false. 
https://www.pewforum.org/2016/10/26/link...-identity/

There are cultures that have no gods. We are not hardwired for anything.
The LONG history of world gods includes every sort of being and nature and weather gods, good and bad. It's hardly "hardwired".
^^^ This.

It's a conceit that people are in any significant way "drawn" to Christian teaching because very few choose Christianity over their birth religion. Sure, it happens, but the main driver is the family you happen to be born into.

Most "converts" to fundamentalism are from other Christian sects or from unaffiliation, because it offers the convert some perceived help in a crisis. My father for example was a non-practicing Catholic married to a non-practicing Lutheran and they started going to a Bible church because they were grateful for the church's positive influence on my troubled oldest brother, who found in the church a less dysfunctional and more structured group to belong to than his Navy drinking buddies. My parents saw this as nothing less than the salvaging of their family idyll when they had no clue how to pull it off. It wasn't the teachings at all, it was the social benefits, falsely credited to the teachings. My other siblings and I followed suit because we knew it was expected of us. I was 5; my brothers were 15, 20 and 25. We were young enough, in a traditional enough family, that we conformed. I suspect this is a pretty typical narrative, although not told in the terms and with the leaps of logic of a typical "testimony".

My next oldest brother went on to graduate from a Baptist seminary and I went on to Bible Institute. The #3 brother, the one 20 years my senior, is the only one of us still (1) alive and (2) active in the faith, and the reason for that, ironically, IS the teachings. They didn't turn out to be true and only bro #3 had enough dumb luck for the abstraction not to break for him. But that's a story for another day.
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#37

You would believe in a god if...
............. he took a shit so big that he couldn't flush it.

Um, wait. Even I could do that.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#38

You would believe in a god if...
I don't think I could accept anything. No matter how fantastical and amazing and miraculous, I would have to think it was coming from a non-supernatural alien race of supercreatures that were manipulating my brain or whatever.
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#39

You would believe in a god if...
(05-07-2019, 10:01 PM)Jenny Wrote:
(05-07-2019, 08:16 PM)SteveII Wrote: It might be appropriate to understand why other people believe in God (specifically the Christian God).

While not universally true, I believe it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?

It is obvious that we are somehow wired to believe in God/higher power/supernatural/purpose/destiny etc. Of course you will say this is a product of our evolution. There are several theories centered around the adaptive values of religion (social solidarity for one). However, these theories presupose naturalism. So the result of this reasoning is that if God did exist or did not exist, we would still be wired to believe God exists.

I think another reason this resonates with people is Jesus' main message that forgiveness, personal peace, a relationship with God, and eternal life is possible.
a. there are a lot of people, who have had tough experiences that find the forgiveness and internal peace very appealing.
b. when you meet someone who has been a Christian a long time and exemplifies Jesus' teachings and shares how God has been a constant comfort and support to them in their daily lives, it is very appealing.
c. eternal life, how can you beat that? This component also helps you make sense/cope of the shortness of life, tragedies, and pain endured while we are here.

Another appealing quality of Christianity is having the question of purpose and place in the universe answered.
d. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.
e. contrast that with the purpose of man is to "Glorify God and enjoy him forever". We were created for a reason and daily life has purpose and you really want others to know what you have found.

Lastly, Jesus modeled his teachings of love, compassion, and forgiveness for your fellow man and in doing so set an example that, if aspired to, would result in a very fulfilling life. Perhaps you are not old enough, but once you contemplate the brevity of life, finding fulfillment becomes important.

Anyway, food for thought. I won't respond to anything unless it is a serious, civil question.

Serious answers as to why you believe in a god are also welcome in this thread as I know there are theists here.  I think you gave some valid responses as to why some people believe in gods as they do.  That said, there are a lot of ex-Christians here (myself included) so I do understand the desire to believe in God/Jesus/etc. as a theist.  

One of the reasons Jesus' teachings resonate with so many is because the Christian religion won out.  A tenet of the Christian religion has always been to spread the Word and to further the Christian religion.  

Re: not being hardwired via evolution for a belief in a god---I can see what you are saying here.  How do we know it was evolution that produced the hardwiring for a belief in god(s)? Maybe it really was God's doing and not an evolutionary trait to enhance survival (apophenia etc, etc, that sometimes causes our brains to get things wrong including a belief in gods as it processes external stimuli).

Anyway Let's go with the "God did it" scenario for a moment: Why is it the Christian God? Why not one of the Greek gods? Or one of the Egyptian god(s) that hardwired us? Why does each culture have their own distinct god and belief system? Why doesn't every culture believe in the same god, the same belief system, and the same book (aka the Bible)? If God did create this hardwiring--wouldn't he also imprint the Bible and the tenets of Christianity somewhere within our psyches as well? Otherwise, we are all just flailing around trying to figure out which of the many gods to believe in thanks to God's hardwiring.  If he truly wanted to have a relationship with us, what better way than to hardwire us for Christianity while he was hardwiring us for a belief in God?

I gave this answer no to long ago in another thread as to why Christianity.

Assumption: For any religion x, any interpretations of revelations and inferences made from those revelations is an attempt to derive a true belief.

1. Can the revelations and inferences of religion x be systematized into a framework that is internally consistent? In other words, do the revelations fit together so as not to contradict each other? Contradictory or ad hoc beliefs suggests an internal problem that needs to be resolved to increase likelihood of deriving a true belief.
2. Does the revelations and inferences of religion x square with science, cause/effect, our observations of our reality, and our intuitions? Contradictions need to be reconciled or they undercut the likelihood of a set of true beliefs.
3. Every religion has a narrative. Whether the narrative is pre-history or historical, is it metaphysically possible: cause/effect, logically possible, and tells us something about the nature of existence and objects and their properties? Is it actually possible: is their historical evidence or contradictions that need to be considered? The less these questions are addressed, the less likely that the narrative is a true belief.

Conclusion: For any religion x, you can establish criteria aimed at ascertaining whether the religion is more or less likely to consist of true beliefs. Such criteria is also relevant in comparing religions against each other.

Regarding why not hardwire for Christianity--I think God hardwired us to search for him. Any religion is a system be beliefs that have to be examined and learned through a process of understanding. Christ also came only relatively recent. I think the answer to your question might be the answer to the question what about the people who never hear about Christ. Absent having the Gospel presented to a person, God judges people on their response to what has been revealed to them. The OT has many examples of people and people groups (other than Jews) that had some knowledge of God and responded in some way.
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#40

You would believe in a god if...
(05-07-2019, 08:16 PM)SteveII Wrote: Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?

The answer is quite simple really.

Most people prefer the comfort of a readily available lie for their questions of life. Rather than be satisfied with I don't know, they choose to be led into the religious delusion of god did it.
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#41

You would believe in a god if...
I'd believe in God if I woke up tomorrow with a 10" penis... of my own BTW.      Tongue
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#42

You would believe in a god if...
(05-08-2019, 11:08 AM)SteveII Wrote:
(05-07-2019, 10:01 PM)Jenny Wrote:
(05-07-2019, 08:16 PM)SteveII Wrote: It might be appropriate to understand why other people believe in God (specifically the Christian God).

While not universally true, I believe it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?

It is obvious that we are somehow wired to believe in God/higher power/supernatural/purpose/destiny etc. Of course you will say this is a product of our evolution. There are several theories centered around the adaptive values of religion (social solidarity for one). However, these theories presupose naturalism. So the result of this reasoning is that if God did exist or did not exist, we would still be wired to believe God exists.

I think another reason this resonates with people is Jesus' main message that forgiveness, personal peace, a relationship with God, and eternal life is possible.
a. there are a lot of people, who have had tough experiences that find the forgiveness and internal peace very appealing.
b. when you meet someone who has been a Christian a long time and exemplifies Jesus' teachings and shares how God has been a constant comfort and support to them in their daily lives, it is very appealing.
c. eternal life, how can you beat that? This component also helps you make sense/cope of the shortness of life, tragedies, and pain endured while we are here.

Another appealing quality of Christianity is having the question of purpose and place in the universe answered.
d. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.
e. contrast that with the purpose of man is to "Glorify God and enjoy him forever". We were created for a reason and daily life has purpose and you really want others to know what you have found.

Lastly, Jesus modeled his teachings of love, compassion, and forgiveness for your fellow man and in doing so set an example that, if aspired to, would result in a very fulfilling life. Perhaps you are not old enough, but once you contemplate the brevity of life, finding fulfillment becomes important.

Anyway, food for thought. I won't respond to anything unless it is a serious, civil question.

Serious answers as to why you believe in a god are also welcome in this thread as I know there are theists here.  I think you gave some valid responses as to why some people believe in gods as they do.  That said, there are a lot of ex-Christians here (myself included) so I do understand the desire to believe in God/Jesus/etc. as a theist.  

One of the reasons Jesus' teachings resonate with so many is because the Christian religion won out.  A tenet of the Christian religion has always been to spread the Word and to further the Christian religion.  

Re: not being hardwired via evolution for a belief in a god---I can see what you are saying here.  How do we know it was evolution that produced the hardwiring for a belief in god(s)? Maybe it really was God's doing and not an evolutionary trait to enhance survival (apophenia etc, etc, that sometimes causes our brains to get things wrong including a belief in gods as it processes external stimuli).

Anyway Let's go with the "God did it" scenario for a moment: Why is it the Christian God? Why not one of the Greek gods? Or one of the Egyptian god(s) that hardwired us? Why does each culture have their own distinct god and belief system? Why doesn't every culture believe in the same god, the same belief system, and the same book (aka the Bible)? If God did create this hardwiring--wouldn't he also imprint the Bible and the tenets of Christianity somewhere within our psyches as well? Otherwise, we are all just flailing around trying to figure out which of the many gods to believe in thanks to God's hardwiring.  If he truly wanted to have a relationship with us, what better way than to hardwire us for Christianity while he was hardwiring us for a belief in God?

I gave this answer no to long ago in another thread as to why Christianity.

Assumption: For any religion x, any interpretations of revelations and inferences made from those revelations is an attempt to derive a true belief.

1. Can the revelations and inferences of religion x be systematized into a framework that is internally consistent? In other words, do the revelations fit together so as not to contradict each other? Contradictory or ad hoc beliefs suggests an internal problem that needs to be resolved to increase likelihood of deriving a true belief.
2. Does the revelations and inferences of religion x square with science, cause/effect, our observations of our reality, and our intuitions? Contradictions need to be reconciled or they undercut the likelihood of a set of true beliefs.
3. Every religion has a narrative. Whether the narrative is pre-history or historical, is it metaphysically possible: cause/effect, logically possible, and tells us something about the nature of existence and objects and their properties? Is it actually possible: is their historical evidence or contradictions that need to be considered? The less these questions are addressed, the less likely that the narrative is a true belief.

Conclusion: For any religion x, you can establish criteria aimed at ascertaining whether the religion is more or less likely to consist of true beliefs. Such criteria is also relevant in comparing religions against each other.

Regarding why not hardwire for Christianity--I think God hardwired us to search for him. Any religion is a system be beliefs that have to be examined and learned through a process of understanding. Christ also came only relatively recent. I think the answer to your question might be the answer to the question what about the people who never hear about Christ. Absent having the Gospel presented to a person, God judges people on their response to what has been revealed to them. The OT has many examples of people and people groups (other than Jews) that had some knowledge of God and responded in some way.

How does the Bible stack up in your opinion to your three part assessment? The Bible has been shown by scholars to be historically inaccurate, scientifically inaccurate, and contradicts itself constantly due to the myriad of writers.  

Do you think you are engaging in black and white thinking by assuming it’s your God that wanted us to search for him? Why do you think it’s the Christian God and not one of the millions of other gods that are out there?
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#43

You would believe in a god if...
(05-08-2019, 01:18 PM)Jenny Wrote:
(05-08-2019, 11:08 AM)SteveII Wrote:
(05-07-2019, 10:01 PM)Jenny Wrote: Serious answers as to why you believe in a god are also welcome in this thread as I know there are theists here.  I think you gave some valid responses as to why some people believe in gods as they do.  That said, there are a lot of ex-Christians here (myself included) so I do understand the desire to believe in God/Jesus/etc. as a theist.  

One of the reasons Jesus' teachings resonate with so many is because the Christian religion won out.  A tenet of the Christian religion has always been to spread the Word and to further the Christian religion.  

Re: not being hardwired via evolution for a belief in a god---I can see what you are saying here.  How do we know it was evolution that produced the hardwiring for a belief in god(s)? Maybe it really was God's doing and not an evolutionary trait to enhance survival (apophenia etc, etc, that sometimes causes our brains to get things wrong including a belief in gods as it processes external stimuli).

Anyway Let's go with the "God did it" scenario for a moment: Why is it the Christian God? Why not one of the Greek gods? Or one of the Egyptian god(s) that hardwired us? Why does each culture have their own distinct god and belief system? Why doesn't every culture believe in the same god, the same belief system, and the same book (aka the Bible)? If God did create this hardwiring--wouldn't he also imprint the Bible and the tenets of Christianity somewhere within our psyches as well? Otherwise, we are all just flailing around trying to figure out which of the many gods to believe in thanks to God's hardwiring.  If he truly wanted to have a relationship with us, what better way than to hardwire us for Christianity while he was hardwiring us for a belief in God?

I gave this answer no to long ago in another thread as to why Christianity.

Assumption: For any religion x, any interpretations of revelations and inferences made from those revelations is an attempt to derive a true belief.

1. Can the revelations and inferences of religion x be systematized into a framework that is internally consistent? In other words, do the revelations fit together so as not to contradict each other? Contradictory or ad hoc beliefs suggests an internal problem that needs to be resolved to increase likelihood of deriving a true belief.
2. Does the revelations and inferences of religion x square with science, cause/effect, our observations of our reality, and our intuitions? Contradictions need to be reconciled or they undercut the likelihood of a set of true beliefs.
3. Every religion has a narrative. Whether the narrative is pre-history or historical, is it metaphysically possible: cause/effect, logically possible, and tells us something about the nature of existence and objects and their properties? Is it actually possible: is their historical evidence or contradictions that need to be considered? The less these questions are addressed, the less likely that the narrative is a true belief.

Conclusion: For any religion x, you can establish criteria aimed at ascertaining whether the religion is more or less likely to consist of true beliefs. Such criteria is also relevant in comparing religions against each other.

Regarding why not hardwire for Christianity--I think God hardwired us to search for him. Any religion is a system be beliefs that have to be examined and learned through a process of understanding. Christ also came only relatively recent. I think the answer to your question might be the answer to the question what about the people who never hear about Christ. Absent having the Gospel presented to a person, God judges people on their response to what has been revealed to them. The OT has many examples of people and people groups (other than Jews) that had some knowledge of God and responded in some way.

How does the Bible stack up in your opinion to your three part assessment? The Bible has been shown by scholars to be historically inaccurate, scientifically inaccurate, and contradicts itself constantly due to the myriad of writers.  

I think that Christianity stacks up better than any other religion.

The Bible is 66 distinct things. The documents preserved by the Jews of antiquity (the OT) serve to inform the Christian religion, but are not the foundation of it. You could know absolutely nothing about the OT and still be a Christian and live an exemplary Christian life.

That said, "historical inaccuracies" should be considered book by book. For example, pre-Abraham history is related differently than post-Abraham--what does that indicate? When were the books written in relation to the events? Is such and such story impossible, unlikely, or likely to be true given the content and significant to the culture at the time of the event vs when it was written down? I'm not asking you, I'm just saying that it's more complicated than dismissing everything because we can't find evidence of a tower of Babel. Additionally (and perhaps related) possible historical inaccuracies do not indicate that the meaning of a particular account is not true (e.g. a particular truth about God' nature). I would never get into an argument on the historicity of particular OT events because they all amount to arguments from silence, massive inferences from the smallest bits of information, and always backfilled for whatever conclusion you wanted to get to when you started. Plus, I don't need to.

I don't think any of the OT books sought to instruct on science.

As for contradictions, the only ones of any interest would be the supposed contradiction in the Gospels. I think it's great that there are minor contradictions. It helps prove independent sources, disproves late fabrication theories, and is what we would expect if they are in fact what they claim to be. There are no contradictions in the overall theme, major claims, and major doctrines. Actually, there are hardly any in anything even of minor interest.

Quote:Do you think you are engaging in black and white thinking by assuming it’s your God that wanted us to search for him? Why do you think it’s the Christian God and not one of the millions of other gods that are out there?

If there is a God, there is only one. If one, which version has the best case (historically, logically, metaphysically, experiencially, etc.)? That would go back to my list above. I think just about any rational mind could figure out that Christianity checks the most boxes on this list out of the world's religions. An interesting question (brought up in the past by Danu) is that did I form my list to make sure that Christianity was the best conclusion? What do you think?
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#44

You would believe in a god if...
(05-08-2019, 02:19 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(05-08-2019, 01:18 PM)Jenny Wrote:
(05-08-2019, 11:08 AM)SteveII Wrote: I gave this answer no to long ago in another thread as to why Christianity.

Assumption: For any religion x, any interpretations of revelations and inferences made from those revelations is an attempt to derive a true belief.

1. Can the revelations and inferences of religion x be systematized into a framework that is internally consistent? In other words, do the revelations fit together so as not to contradict each other? Contradictory or ad hoc beliefs suggests an internal problem that needs to be resolved to increase likelihood of deriving a true belief.
2. Does the revelations and inferences of religion x square with science, cause/effect, our observations of our reality, and our intuitions? Contradictions need to be reconciled or they undercut the likelihood of a set of true beliefs.
3. Every religion has a narrative. Whether the narrative is pre-history or historical, is it metaphysically possible: cause/effect, logically possible, and tells us something about the nature of existence and objects and their properties? Is it actually possible: is their historical evidence or contradictions that need to be considered? The less these questions are addressed, the less likely that the narrative is a true belief.

Conclusion: For any religion x, you can establish criteria aimed at ascertaining whether the religion is more or less likely to consist of true beliefs. Such criteria is also relevant in comparing religions against each other.

Regarding why not hardwire for Christianity--I think God hardwired us to search for him. Any religion is a system be beliefs that have to be examined and learned through a process of understanding. Christ also came only relatively recent. I think the answer to your question might be the answer to the question what about the people who never hear about Christ. Absent having the Gospel presented to a person, God judges people on their response to what has been revealed to them. The OT has many examples of people and people groups (other than Jews) that had some knowledge of God and responded in some way.

How does the Bible stack up in your opinion to your three part assessment? The Bible has been shown by scholars to be historically inaccurate, scientifically inaccurate, and contradicts itself constantly due to the myriad of writers.  

I think that Christianity stacks up better than any other religion.

The Bible is 66 distinct things. The documents preserved by the Jews of antiquity (the OT)  serve to inform the Christian religion, but are not the foundation of it. You could know absolutely nothing about the OT and still be a Christian and live an exemplary Christian life.

That said, "historical inaccuracies" should be considered book by book. For example, pre-Abraham history is related differently than post-Abraham--what does that indicate? When were the books written in relation to the events?  Is such and such story impossible, unlikely, or likely to be true given the content and significant to the culture at the time of the event vs when it was written down? I'm not asking you, I'm just saying that it's more complicated than dismissing everything because we can't find evidence of a tower of Babel. Additionally (and perhaps related) possible historical inaccuracies do not indicate that the meaning of a particular account is not true (e.g. a particular truth about God' nature). I would never get into an argument on the historicity of particular OT events because they all amount to arguments from silence, massive inferences from the smallest bits of information, and always backfilled for whatever conclusion you wanted to get to when you started. Plus, I don't need to.

I don't think any of the OT books sought to instruct on science.

As for contradictions, the only ones of any interest would be the supposed contradiction in the Gospels.  I think it's great that there are minor contradictions. It helps prove independent sources, disproves late fabrication theories, and is what we would expect if they are in fact what they claim to be. There are no contradictions in the overall theme, major claims, and major doctrines. Actually, there are hardly any in anything even of minor interest.

Quote:Do you think you are engaging in black and white thinking by assuming it’s your God that wanted us to search for him? Why do you think it’s the Christian God and not one of the millions of other gods that are out there?

If there is a God, there is only one. If one, which version has the best case (historically, logically, metaphysically, experiencially, etc.)? That would go back to my list above. I think just about any rational mind could figure out that Christianity checks the most boxes on this list out of the world's religions. An interesting question (brought up in the past by Danu) is that did I form my list to make sure that Christianity was the best conclusion? What do you think?

I can understand as a believer you might think it's the best conclusion.  I think each person who believes or believed in a god--any god--at any point in time fully believed they came to the right conclusion as well.  

Imo, if there was a god, a real one, and the way he/she chose to communicate to us was through a book written by humans, he/she would make sure everything was 100 percent accurate and with no contradictions and no historical inaccuracies.  Since contradictions and historical inaccuracies do exist in the Bible, that points to a concoction of stories written by different humans that are in no way divine.  Additionally, imo, an all powerful being who created everything would want there to be scientific accuracies in the very book he wants humans to study and live by.
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#45

You would believe in a god if...
Whether or not I'd believe in God (seriously) would be contingent upon three things:

1. My youngest brother would suddenly be cured of an incurable lifetime affliction.

2. Over 100 pounds of useless fat would magically disappear from my body and I would achieve my ideal weight.

3. The needle on my Yo, God! Detector would move to "Yes."

Big Grin
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#46

You would believe in a god if...
(05-08-2019, 11:08 AM)SteveII Wrote: I gave this answer no to long ago in another thread as to why Christianity.

Assumption: For any religion x, any interpretations of revelations and inferences made from those revelations is an attempt to derive a true belief.

1. Can the revelations and inferences of religion x be systematized into a framework that is internally consistent? In other words, do the revelations fit together so as not to contradict each other? Contradictory or ad hoc beliefs suggests an internal problem that needs to be resolved to increase likelihood of deriving a true belief.
2. Does the revelations and inferences of religion x square with science, cause/effect, our observations of our reality, and our intuitions? Contradictions need to be reconciled or they undercut the likelihood of a set of true beliefs.
3. Every religion has a narrative. Whether the narrative is pre-history or historical, is it metaphysically possible: cause/effect, logically possible, and tells us something about the nature of existence and objects and their properties? Is it actually possible: is their historical evidence or contradictions that need to be considered? The less these questions are addressed, the less likely that the narrative is a true belief.

Conclusion: For any religion x, you can establish criteria aimed at ascertaining whether the religion is more or less likely to consist of true beliefs. Such criteria is also relevant in comparing religions against each other.

Regarding why not hardwire for Christianity--I think God hardwired us to search for him. Any religion is a system be beliefs that have to be examined and learned through a process of understanding. Christ also came only relatively recent. I think the answer to your question might be the answer to the question what about the people who never hear about Christ. Absent having the Gospel presented to a person, God judges people on their response to what has been revealed to them. The OT has many examples of people and people groups (other than Jews) that had some knowledge of God and responded in some way.

All this mumbo-jumbo in which he's trying to make Christianity flow from some sort of logical paradigm is actually very UN-Christian.
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast".
Stevie is the very definition of "boast".
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#47

You would believe in a god if...
(05-08-2019, 02:19 PM)SteveII Wrote: As for contradictions, the only ones of any interest would be the supposed contradiction in the Gospels.  I think it's great that there are minor contradictions...

"Minor" contradictions?  Oh fucking dear!

Try 101 Contradictions in the Bible

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I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#48

You would believe in a god if...
I'd start believing in god if one of my sons hung his jacket up in the entrance way closet when he came home instead of just dropping it on the floor.

If he'd put his shoes away instead leaving them right in front of the door I'd even consider snipping the tip. 


But seriously as for the "hardwired for believing in god" we'd have to go back thousands of years to the beginning and see how it first started in different societies where it actually did start (not brought in from outside the group) to really know for sure. As it is now the vast majority of people believe in X god because they've been told by their family that it is true from birth, what chance would they have to not believe it?


Even I thought growing up in a non-religious family that I must be missing something that everybody else seems to have understood from the beginning, because religion has been infused so pervasively into our culture you're made to think it's a normal part of society.
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#49

You would believe in a god if...
(05-07-2019, 08:16 PM)SteveII Wrote: d. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.

But in the mean time, there are tacos. Big Grin
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#50

You would believe in a god if...
(05-08-2019, 08:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:
(05-07-2019, 08:16 PM)SteveII Wrote: d. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.

But in the mean time, there are tacos.  Big Grin

I know it's crazy, but sometimes even tacos are not enough for some people! Big Grin
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