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The Bible
#26

The Bible
(04-27-2019, 01:31 AM)Ima Believer Wrote: Is the Bible infallible? No.  

Was the Bible written for us? No. 

What is the overall meaning of the Bible? The Bible has a brief introduction and then, beginning with Genesis 3:15 and through the conclusion of Revelation it's about the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

The "Bible" is not a homogeneous work.  It is a collection of books written over a long period of time.  The mythological books like Genesis contain bits and pieces of older myths, reworked and redacted over time.  The faux histories of Exodus et al have a different reason and purpose.  The  prophets have a different purpose and reason for their being written.  The wisdom books like proverbs have little to do with the preceding books.  The gospels and then Paul's epistles move beyond the OT.  There is really, little overall meaning, just various stages in development of complex theologies and mythologies.

Ask the wrong questions, get the wrong answers.  Ask the wrong 'authorities' and get the wrong answers.
I am a sovereign citizen of the Multiverse, and I vote!


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#27

The Bible
(04-27-2019, 03:09 AM)Ima Believer Wrote: ...This is my last post. This forum consists entirely of people who want to talk about subject directly having to do with atheists from time to time but primarily, the majority of it, is about making fun of theism.

It's not actually.  If you're reading this, we were trying to get you to expand on your own, personal
viewpoints about religions in general, and Christianity and the bible in particular.  You merely posted
numerous links to what other people were surmising or claiming—even dictionary definitions of words
(which of course is not debating).  And if you happen to look back over this thread, you'll note that
initially you were welcomed as a theist, and your first several post were responded to appropriately,
with not one single insult directed towards theism per se.

Quote:I get that, and I think that if there are persons who enjoy that release of frustrations, of the proverbial steam, then this forum is important.

I suggest you look up the phrase "passive aggressive".  Your display of such a psychological dysfunction
has become increasingly apparent with each successive comment you've posted.

Quote:I wish you all the best and hope you do enjoy your selves, but it isn't for me. So, I'm going to gracefully bow out.

Excellent news!  Thank you.     Thumbs Up

Quote:I think I made maybe 10 posts out of a hundred that weren't bad. Under the circumstances I consider that pretty good. Thanks for the opportunity to have done that.

I'm pleased to see that this immature schoolkid finally realised, and acknowledged, that 90% of his comments
were bullshit.  I would've said 100% but that's just me LOL.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#28

The Bible
(04-27-2019, 03:09 AM)Ima Believer Wrote:
(04-27-2019, 02:06 AM)brewerb Wrote: Ima, do you consider the bible more than a story? If yes, in what way(s)?

(giving you a chance here, lets see what you do)

No. This is my last post. This forum consists entirely of people who want to talk about subject directly having to do with atheists from time to time but primarily, the majority of it, is about making fun of theism. 

I get that, and I think that if there are persons who enjoy that release of frustrations, of the proverbial steam, then this forum is important. I wish you all the best and hope you do enjoy your selves, but it isn't for me. So, I'm going to gracefully bow out. 

I think I made maybe 10 posts out of a hundred that weren't bad. Under the circumstances I consider that pretty good. Thanks for the opportunity to have done that. 

Have fun.

So I see you're a lying theist, (attention-seeker). 

BTW, a little advice for when they hold the Middle School Spelling and Grammar Bee in your school. 
"Yourselves" is all one word. K ?  Facepalm

Ta ta for now.
Test
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#29

The Bible
(04-27-2019, 03:09 AM)Ima Believer Wrote: No. This is my last post. This forum consists entirely of people who want to talk about subject directly having to do with atheists from time to time but primarily, the majority of it, is about making fun of theism.

It's a shame. It may be just because I haven't read any of your posts in other threads, but I would've liked to have had an exchange with you, even if only to find out what redeeming and transcendent qualities you think the Bible has, learn why you think as you do, and perhaps even provide some stimulating challenge to your beliefs.

While I won't deny that genuine mockery does occur here, I have to wonder how much of what you're referring to is actually "making fun" rather than simply dropping the traditionally euphemistic and reverential parlance normally afforded to religion and actually discussing the topic transparently and without bias.  After all, when you have centuries of referring to a spade as an upside-down black heart in order to spin it into something more positive than it actually is, finally calling it a spade can feel insulting when it's really just honest. When automatic reverence has so long been the norm, mere hermeneutic dispassion can feel like crude irreverence by comparison.
The only sacred truth in science is that there are no sacred truths. - Carl Sagan
Ἡ μόνη ἱερᾱ̀ ἀληθείᾱ ἐν τῇ φυσικῇ φιλοσοφίᾳ ἐστὶν ἡ ἱερῶν ἀληθειῶν σπάνις. - Κᾱ́ρολος Σήγανος


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#30

The Bible
(04-28-2019, 06:47 AM)Glossophile Wrote: While I won't deny that genuine mockery does occur here, I have to wonder how much of what you're referring to is actually "making fun" rather than simply dropping the traditionally euphemistic and reverential parlance normally afforded to religion and actually discussing the topic transparently and without bias.  After all, when you have centuries of referring to a spade as an upside-down black heart in order to spin it into something more positive than it actually is, finally calling it a spade can feel insulting when it's really just honest.  When automatic reverence has so long been the norm, mere hermeneutic dispassion can feel like crude irreverence by comparison.
Absolutely. Theists are SO accustomed to unearned deference and respect for their ideas, that simply discussing them outside the context of special pleading and various ritual tap-dances seems needlessly and deliberately provoking. In reality it's no more obnoxious than how any other system of thought is addressed in conversation or debate. The notion that religious ideation has to pull its own weight and justify its assertions in any way is just something the religious didn't encounter prior to the 20th century in general, the mass media era less generally, and the information age in particular. Why do you think they are trying so desperately to claw us back into the uneducated, uninformed "good old days"? A level playing field is very much their enemy.
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#31

The Bible
(04-28-2019, 03:44 PM)mordant Wrote:
(04-28-2019, 06:47 AM)Glossophile Wrote: While I won't deny that genuine mockery does occur here, I have to wonder how much of what you're referring to is actually "making fun" rather than simply dropping the traditionally euphemistic and reverential parlance normally afforded to religion and actually discussing the topic transparently and without bias.  After all, when you have centuries of referring to a spade as an upside-down black heart in order to spin it into something more positive than it actually is, finally calling it a spade can feel insulting when it's really just honest.  When automatic reverence has so long been the norm, mere hermeneutic dispassion can feel like crude irreverence by comparison.
Absolutely. Theists are SO accustomed to unearned deference and respect for their ideas, that simply discussing them outside the context of special pleading and various ritual tap-dances seems needlessly and deliberately provoking. In reality it's no more obnoxious than how any other system of thought is addressed in conversation or debate. The notion that religious ideation has to pull its own weight and justify its assertions in any way is just something the religious didn't encounter prior to the 20th century in general, the mass media era less generally, and the information age in particular. Why do you think they are trying so desperately to claw us back into the uneducated, uninformed "good old days"? A level playing field is very much their enemy.

This ^ ^ ^

For the first time in human history religion is being questioned and now theists are in a big ole snit.  They just assume the default position is belief in a god  and atheism is unnatural.  What a load of crap.  Now theists, especially Christians, are back in the "poor ole me, I'm being persecuted and opressed" mode.  Drives me nuts.
                                                         T4618
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#32

The Bible
(04-28-2019, 04:09 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: For the first time in human history religion is being questioned and now theists are in a big ole snit.  They just assume the default position is belief in a god  and atheism is unnatural.  What a load of crap.  Now theists, especially Christians, are back in the "poor ole me, I'm being persecuted and opressed" mode.  Drives me nuts.
They have no clue what actual persecution is or consists of. If they feel like clutching their pearls, they're "persecuted".

Too bad, so sad.

It is so arrogantly privileged and self-absorbed, but yet they see themselves as kind and selfless. There's no bigger gap between a person's carefully cultivated self-image and how they want to be seen, and how they actually are deep down, than in a Christian fundamentalist. One of the hardest things for me about leaving the faith was admitting what an asshat I was, how shitty I was to people, and what a total empathy deficit I suffered from.

It is not an easy realization.

I mean, everything about fundamentalist thinking discounts being good in favor of being "right". You might say they put the "right" in righteousness.
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#33

The Bible
(04-28-2019, 03:44 PM)mordant Wrote:
(04-28-2019, 06:47 AM)Glossophile Wrote: While I won't deny that genuine mockery does occur here, I have to wonder how much of what you're referring to is actually "making fun" rather than simply dropping the traditionally euphemistic and reverential parlance normally afforded to religion and actually discussing the topic transparently and without bias.  After all, when you have centuries of referring to a spade as an upside-down black heart in order to spin it into something more positive than it actually is, finally calling it a spade can feel insulting when it's really just honest.  When automatic reverence has so long been the norm, mere hermeneutic dispassion can feel like crude irreverence by comparison.
Absolutely. Theists are SO accustomed to unearned deference and respect for their ideas, that simply discussing them outside the context of special pleading and various ritual tap-dances seems needlessly and deliberately provoking. In reality it's no more obnoxious than how any other system of thought is addressed in conversation or debate. The notion that religious ideation has to pull its own weight and justify its assertions in any way is just something the religious didn't encounter prior to the 20th century in general, the mass media era less generally, and the information age in particular. Why do you think they are trying so desperately to claw us back into the uneducated, uninformed "good old days"? A level playing field is very much their enemy.


Right.

[Image: atheist-respect.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#34

The Bible
9% of christians read all the bible  ...  Religion news service

Do you think its time to redefine what the bible actually is ?

ornament

noun

an object that is decorative rather than useful:
 
book
 
noun

a set of pages that have been fastened together inside a cover to be read or written in:
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#35

The Bible
Theatrical prop?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#36

The Bible
(04-30-2019, 05:53 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Theatrical prop?

[Image: bookgun16.jpg]
                                                         T4618
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#37

The Bible
(04-30-2019, 05:29 PM)madog Wrote: 9% of christians read all the bible  ...  Religion news service
That sounds about right.

Christians exist who take the Bible seriously, read it cover to cover, and study it in-depth (at least in the context of their hermaneutic of choice). I was once such a one.

But most self-identified Christians are content to go on hearsay, so to speak. They have no interest in first hand knowledge of the urtext of their entire faith. Heck, many are content to have a merely cultural association with church tradition. Whatever they know about the Bible is what they half-listen to when they occasionally go to a church service.

The irony in all this is that for all my years of honoring the Bible as a source for faith and practice, including two semesters of formal study, I would still have been considered woefully misled and even heretical to many other Christians. The notion that the Bible's meaning can be unambiguously determined is bullshit.

Entire denominations exist because of an emphasis on one sentence somewhere in the Bible. Pentecostalism is a great example of that. Their doctrine of the "baptism in the holy spirit" is based on on overdetermined reading of half a verse in the book of Acts. It is however the basis for that distinctive belief that makes them who they are. They will fight to the death to defend their emphasis on and interpretation of that one sentence, and spin an entire theological sub-basement out of it.

That's because holy books, including the Bible, are vague templates by design. They allow each social group in each era to draw from it what they wish and spin their campfire stories from it.
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#38

The Bible
[Image: tumblr_p4hr5efZwX1wreoqmo1_400.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#39

The Bible
(04-27-2019, 03:04 AM)Ima Believer Wrote:
(04-27-2019, 01:49 AM)Free Wrote: Research its history from the perspective of history instead of the perspective of a religious belief. You will become enriched if you do, even if you remain a theist.



Glad you posted this. I've been listening to Dr. Peterson's lectures on the Bible. It's easy for me to get into since they're entirely secular and assume that it is mythology. Coming at it from a historical and psychological perspective makes it very fascinating, and also makes me realize that there are lessons to be learned from the stories even when you remove the religiosity.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#40

The Bible
@Aegon

It's true of all narrative stories be they mythology, drama, melodrama, humor, etc. You could get the same value out of any other form of entertainment. One of the strongest and popular medium for moralistic stories today are police procedural TV shows and comic book movies.
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#41

The Bible
(05-01-2019, 11:46 PM)epronovost Wrote: @Aegon

It's true of all narrative stories be they mythology, drama, melodrama, humor, etc. You could get the same value out of any other form of entertainment. One of the strongest and popular medium for moralistic stories today are police procedural TV shows and comic book movies.

Sure. I think atheists tend to entirely dismiss the Bible as a piece of shit, when it's an insanely formidable work that has lasted longer than any other narrative story. If it doesn't interest you as to why, or you don't care, that's fine. I didn't for a while, especially being raised Catholic.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#42

The Bible
(05-02-2019, 01:14 PM)Aegon Wrote:
(05-01-2019, 11:46 PM)epronovost Wrote: @Aegon

It's true of all narrative stories be they mythology, drama, melodrama, humor, etc. You could get the same value out of any other form of entertainment. One of the strongest and popular medium for moralistic stories today are police procedural TV shows and comic book movies.

Sure. I think atheists tend to entirely dismiss the Bible as a piece of shit, when it's an insanely formidable work that has lasted longer than any other narrative story. If it doesn't interest you as to why, or you don't care, that's fine. I didn't for a while, especially being raised Catholic.

Nitpick I know but there are many stories way older then the Bible that are still read today like the Illyad, the Odyssey or the life of Gilgamesh to name just a few. All of these are also superior to the Bible whose narrative stories are broken up in a rather disjointed tapestry and lack a good romance. That a sacred book survived thanks to those who follow it is without surprise. That the myths of civilisation long dead belonging to a religion without followers managed to survive up to today is more spectacular in my eyes. Yet, the heroics of Hercules are about as well known as those of David.
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#43

The Bible
(05-02-2019, 01:14 PM)Aegon Wrote:
(05-01-2019, 11:46 PM)epronovost Wrote: @Aegon

It's true of all narrative stories be they mythology, drama, melodrama, humor, etc. You could get the same value out of any other form of entertainment. One of the strongest and popular medium for moralistic stories today are police procedural TV shows and comic book movies.

Sure. I think atheists tend to entirely dismiss the Bible as a piece of shit, when it's an insanely formidable work that has lasted longer than any other narrative story. If it doesn't interest you as to why, or you don't care, that's fine. I didn't for a while, especially being raised Catholic.

Part of that is due to the intentional shaping of culture and literature by religious advocacy of it and oppression of competitors, and also seems rather euro-centric. The picture you paint is rather simplistic and seems to overlook some rather obvious contributors to its popularity and longevity.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#44

The Bible
Surprising fact...

Although China is officially an atheist country, it's also where most Bibles are printed.
Amity Printing Co, based in Nanjing in East China, reached 150 million in 2016, and
currently produces around 1,500 Bibles an hour.    Who woulda thunk it?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#45

The Bible
(05-02-2019, 02:14 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(05-02-2019, 01:14 PM)Aegon Wrote:
(05-01-2019, 11:46 PM)epronovost Wrote: @Aegon

It's true of all narrative stories be they mythology, drama, melodrama, humor, etc. You could get the same value out of any other form of entertainment. One of the strongest and popular medium for moralistic stories today are police procedural TV shows and comic book movies.

Sure. I think atheists tend to entirely dismiss the Bible as a piece of shit, when it's an insanely formidable work that has lasted longer than any other narrative story. If it doesn't interest you as to why, or you don't care, that's fine. I didn't for a while, especially being raised Catholic.

Part of that is due to the intentional shaping of culture and literature by religious advocacy of it and oppression of competitors, and also seems rather euro-centric.  The picture you paint is rather simplistic and seems to overlook some rather obvious contributors to its popularity and longevity.

I'm not ignoring them personally, but for the purposes of my post I don't see the point in saying something that is rather obvious. There are qualities of the Biblical stories that evoke strong attachment because they successfully speak to the human condition. There are a ton of ways in which political and cultural leaders who controlled society's agenda relentlessly pushed the Bible and its teachings, usually in a fucked up and inhumane, or at the very least undesirable, manner. That's not so relevant to me now. What's relevant to me is why free-thinking people in 2019 who are not compelled by law to follow Christianity can read this text and ascertain such great meaning, and choose to follow it when they weren't prior.

I think a lot of non-believers are a bit quick to dismiss the Bible as complete bullshit and anybody who reads it and gets something out of it is an idiot, brainwashed, not a free thinker, etc... I think that's disingenuous, and I think the Bible has its place among many other formidable works of religious philosophy.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#46

The Bible
(05-02-2019, 02:05 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(05-02-2019, 01:14 PM)Aegon Wrote:
(05-01-2019, 11:46 PM)epronovost Wrote: @Aegon

It's true of all narrative stories be they mythology, drama, melodrama, humor, etc. You could get the same value out of any other form of entertainment. One of the strongest and popular medium for moralistic stories today are police procedural TV shows and comic book movies.

Sure. I think atheists tend to entirely dismiss the Bible as a piece of shit, when it's an insanely formidable work that has lasted longer than any other narrative story. If it doesn't interest you as to why, or you don't care, that's fine. I didn't for a while, especially being raised Catholic.

Nitpick I know but there are many stories way older then the Bible that are still read today like the Illyad, the Odyssey or the life of Gilgamesh to name just a few. All of these are also superior to the Bible whose narrative stories are broken up in a rather disjointed tapestry and lack a good romance. That a sacred book survived thanks to those who follow it is without surprise. That the myths of civilisation long dead belonging to a religion without followers managed to survive up to today is more spectacular in my eyes. Yet, the heroics of Hercules are about as well known as those of David.

If anything that reinforces my point, since the Old Testament used a lot of tropes, and even specific plot points, from these even older mythologies. There is something about these stories that stands the test of time because we identify with them on a primal, psychological basis.

Maybe I haven't dug myself deep enough into this area of thought to defend my position well. I'll leave it alone for now.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#47

The Bible
(05-02-2019, 07:20 PM)Aegon Wrote: If anything that reinforces my point, since the Old Testament used a lot of tropes, and even specific plot points, from these even older mythologies. There is something about these stories that stands the test of time because we identify with them on a primal, psychological basis.

Maybe I haven't dug myself deep enough into this area of thought to defend my position well. I'll leave it alone for now.

The problem with tropes is that some become so generalised that it becomes impossible  not to see them everywhere a bit like any definition of concept vague enough can apply to pretty much anything and nothing at the same time.

PS: there are very few common story elements between the Bible and the Illyad for example beside to mentions of deities (both being very different in nature) and destiny.
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#48

The Bible
[Image: 0e307ce4426ca23091b34877ad1973a9.jpg]

And of course the jesus freaks insist that he is one and the same with their godboy.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#49

The Bible
(05-02-2019, 08:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(05-02-2019, 07:20 PM)Aegon Wrote: If anything that reinforces my point, since the Old Testament used a lot of tropes, and even specific plot points, from these even older mythologies. There is something about these stories that stands the test of time because we identify with them on a primal, psychological basis.

Maybe I haven't dug myself deep enough into this area of thought to defend my position well. I'll leave it alone for now.

The problem with tropes is that some become so generalised that it becomes impossible  not to see them everywhere a bit like any definition of concept vague enough can apply to pretty much anything and nothing at the same time.

PS: there are very few common story elements between the Bible and the Illyad for example beside to mentions of deities (both being very different in nature) and destiny.

But the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah are practically identical
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#50

The Bible
And Gilgamesh can be traced to the much older 17th century BC) Akkadian Epic of Atrahasis....

https://www.ancient.eu/article/227/the-a...eaning-of/


which itself is derived from the still older (3d millenium BC) Sumerian tale of Ziusudra

"The significance of Ziusudra's name appearing on the WB-62 king list is that it links the flood mentioned in the three surviving Babylonian deluge epics of Ziusudra (Eridu Genesis), Utnapishtim (Epic of Gilgamesh), and Atrahasis (Epic of Atra-Hasis) to river flood sediments in Shuruppak, Uruk, Kish et al. that have been radiocarbon dated to ca. 2900 BC. This has led some scholars to conclude that the flood hero was king of Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period (ca. 3100–2900) which ended with the river flood of 2900 BC"

Quote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziusudra#K..._Shuruppak


The xhristards think they are so clever when all they are is a gang of plagiarists!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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