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"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
#76

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(04-29-2019, 05:39 PM)Jenny Wrote: I like the idea of sticking with one person til the end.  There's a feeling of safety there.  They're your rock and you're theirs.  Sure it might be romanticized in this day and age to think that way, but I think it is doable if both people truly want that.  I think being forever isn't something that's always going to be easy--there are going to be hard parts.  I think if you go into a marriage thinking everything will *always* be love and sunshine and there will be no hard parts, then you're setting yourself up for a huge let down.  However, imo, if you go into a marriage aware that there will sometimes be hard parts, but you both know you love each other enough to work through them--then I think a marriage has a very good chance of survival.  Forgive me for quoting Piper from "Orange is the New Black" Big Grin  Tongue but I love this quote and it's how I feel about what a good marriage-worthy relationship is and what it means to me: "It's like coming home from a long trip...that's what love is like.  It's coming home."  I think that's something worth fighting for  Smile Heart

I've been with Mrs Oaktree for 12 years, this year I believe. [Possibly even 13...I can't remember lol. Please don't tell her!]

There is a lot to it for me. I'm a child of divorced parents, so part of me know that sometimes it doesnt work out, and that's ok. But at the same time, I know that sometimes it's easier to throw in the towel than it is to work together and solve your problems. I mean, yeah everybody has absolute deal breakers and all that, but really basic stuff like who goes where/what you do without your partner mostly come down to trust. If you can trust your partner, and you in turn can repay that trust factor, all other things are mostly "nothings" and can be worked passed, if both people are willing to acknowledge their issues and move forward.

It's about loving your partner, wholly without any doubt. I mean, yeah I see attractive women and know they are attractive, but in the same way I see men and think "he's a handsome guy, good on you". I'm only directly attracted physically/sexually to my wife. She's the one for me. I don't enjoy many things she likes and the same the other way around, but we love each other and have a common mind-set on "real world" issues. Just because I don't like her favorite band doesn't mean we can't be together. If anything it means I get do things/see things that are out of my comfort zone, and again vice versa, which we both end up having new experiences in the process. 

TL : DR - Relationships are work, put in the work and it's worth it, IMO at least.  Smile
"Ah, we’re not going to church today. Fuck that. Ah, it’s all a bunch of bullshit. God’s everywhere, but I gotta go down there to see him? Really? And he’s mad at me down there, and I owe ya money? Go fuck yourself." - Bill Burr
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#77

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(05-01-2019, 04:59 PM)OakTree500 Wrote:
(04-29-2019, 05:39 PM)Jenny Wrote: I like the idea of sticking with one person til the end.  There's a feeling of safety there.  They're your rock and you're theirs.  Sure it might be romanticized in this day and age to think that way, but I think it is doable if both people truly want that.  I think being forever isn't something that's always going to be easy--there are going to be hard parts.  I think if you go into a marriage thinking everything will *always* be love and sunshine and there will be no hard parts, then you're setting yourself up for a huge let down.  However, imo, if you go into a marriage aware that there will sometimes be hard parts, but you both know you love each other enough to work through them--then I think a marriage has a very good chance of survival.  Forgive me for quoting Piper from "Orange is the New Black" Big Grin  Tongue but I love this quote and it's how I feel about what a good marriage-worthy relationship is and what it means to me: "It's like coming home from a long trip...that's what love is like.  It's coming home."  I think that's something worth fighting for  Smile Heart

I've been with Mrs Oaktree for 12 years, this year I believe. [Possibly even 13...I can't remember lol. Please don't tell her!]

There is a lot to it for me. I'm a child of divorced parents, so part of me know that sometimes it doesnt work out, and that's ok. But at the same time, I know that sometimes it's easier to throw in the towel than it is to work together and solve your problems. I mean, yeah everybody has absolute deal breakers and all that, but really basic stuff like who goes where/what you do without your partner mostly come down to trust. If you can trust your partner, and you in turn can repay that trust factor, all other things are mostly "nothings" and can be worked passed, if both people are willing to acknowledge their issues and move forward.

It's about loving your partner, wholly without any doubt. I mean, yeah I see attractive women and know they are attractive, but in the same way I see men and think "he's a handsome guy, good on you". I'm only directly attracted physically/sexually to my wife. She's the one for me. I don't enjoy many things she likes and the same the other way around, but we love each other and have a common mind-set on "real world" issues. Just because I don't like her favorite band doesn't mean we can't be together. If anything it means I get do things/see things that are out of my comfort zone, and again vice versa, which we both end up having new experiences in the process. 

TL : DR - Relationships are work, put in the work and it's worth it, IMO at least.  Smile

This made me get all teary, it was so sweet  Heart You two truly have a special relationship.  Heart Heart
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#78

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(04-29-2019, 05:39 PM)Jenny Wrote: I like the idea of sticking with one person til the end.  There's a feeling of safety there.  They're your rock and you're theirs.  Sure it might be romanticized in this day and age to think that way, but I think it is doable if both people truly want that.  I think being forever isn't something that's always going to be easy--there are going to be hard parts.  I think if you go into a marriage thinking everything will *always* be love and sunshine and there will be no hard parts, then you're setting yourself up for a huge let down.  However, imo, if you go into a marriage aware that there will sometimes be hard parts, but you both know you love each other enough to work through them--then I think a marriage has a very good chance of survival.  Forgive me for quoting Piper from "Orange is the New Black" Big Grin  Tongue but I love this quote and it's how I feel about what a good marriage-worthy relationship is and what it means to me: "It's like coming home from a long trip...that's what love is like.  It's coming home."  I think that's something worth fighting for  Smile Heart
I don't think it's a function of both parties wanting it badly enough -- not directly anyway. It's a function of both parties being willing to put everything into it and work very hard on it and to not go to certain places when the going gets tough -- e.g., they don't need to lash out and so forth. That requires wanting it badly enough, but it also requires the ability to persist and to believe in it, and for both persons to pull roughly equal weight in that regard, and for both to have decent emotional maturity. That's a lot to ask from grown ups, much less the young / inexperienced / hormone-crazed.

One thought piece I read suggests that a certain amount of magical thinking is needed to carry you through those times when your partner is not their best selves or unable to give to you what you need. I think there's some truth to that. Let's face it, each of us is special -- just like everyone else. In other words there's no special reason why anyone would want to put up with your or my shit for a lifetime apart from the crazy notion that it's somehow worth it and a gratifying accomplishment in its own right.

As I often put it -- not only am I not the man I used to be, it turns out I never was the man I used to be. That was manufactured in between my ears. I have nothing special to offer anyone, only my real self, or what's left of it. I would not really expect anyone to find that compelling, but if they claim to, I certainly expect them to keep up the fiction so as not to commit what they used to call breach of promise. This is rare, so far as I can tell.
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#79

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
I personally wouldn't marry. Not because of divorce rates. I just don't see the point. To me marriage has nothing to do with love.
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#80

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(05-01-2019, 09:52 PM)Red Belt Wrote: I personally wouldn't marry. Not because of divorce rates. I just don't see the point. To me marriage has nothing to do with love.
Sometimes we use "marry" as a shorthand for being in a committed relationship. I don't personally feel it has anything to do with love either, but it has a lot to do with it in between some people's ears. For that reason I would probably favor marriage if I were young and planning a family together as it takes some issues / stigmas off the table that children can face and clarifies child care responsibilities, etc.

I proposed to my wife at age 52 and after all our children were out of the nest, more to allow her to be married to me if she preferred it to be "official" but she never did. Then suddenly at year 8 she decided she wanted to do it. Given that we had a simple civil ceremony, and had no minor children, it was kind of a toss-off decision that I now regret, for two reasons. One, she now feels a little confined at times which is probably why she resisted it to begin with, and two, it had some really unfortunate tax and retirement consequences, not least that she no longer is eligible for Social Security based on her late husband's earnings, which cut her benefits in half.

So yeah, for the most part, marriage, schmarriage.
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#81

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(05-01-2019, 05:37 PM)Jenny Wrote: This made me get all teary, it was so sweet  Heart You two truly have a special relationship.  Heart Heart

Blush  Well I like to think so. 

(05-01-2019, 09:52 PM)Red Belt Wrote: I personally wouldn't marry. Not because of divorce rates. I just don't see the point. To me marriage has nothing to do with love.

For me personally, and I know this isn't a reflection on everybody who does get married, I see it as purely symbolic. The physical act of marriage is essentially a commitment ceremony. The paper you sign or wedding don't stop you from ever betraying your vows, if you were so inclined, but the whole thing is just for two people to say "I'm with this person, and this person only". 

I mean, in the real world, it means "nothing" when you think about it, but to others [like me] it means a whole lot. Why is that? I honestly don't really have a good answer. I'm always committed in any relationship I've ever been in, so getting married hasn't changed my outlook on what I can/can't do when I'm in a relationship. But being married now mean a lot of things, to both of us [and our daughter], so it's pretty cool in that respect.

I posted elsewhere but my father just got married, for the second time, to his long term partner. He always told me he NEVER would marry again, after divorcing my mother. Yet after many years, and a couple of partners, he found somebody that he genuinely really wants to be with forever, [if it were humanly possible haha].
"Ah, we’re not going to church today. Fuck that. Ah, it’s all a bunch of bullshit. God’s everywhere, but I gotta go down there to see him? Really? And he’s mad at me down there, and I owe ya money? Go fuck yourself." - Bill Burr
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#82

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(05-02-2019, 07:18 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:
(05-01-2019, 05:37 PM)Jenny Wrote: This made me get all teary, it was so sweet  Heart You two truly have a special relationship.  Heart Heart

Blush  Well I like to think so. 

(05-01-2019, 09:52 PM)Red Belt Wrote: I personally wouldn't marry. Not because of divorce rates. I just don't see the point. To me marriage has nothing to do with love.

For me personally, and I know this isn't a reflection on everybody who does get married, I see it as purely symbolic. The physical act of marriage is essentially a commitment ceremony. The paper you sign or wedding don't stop you from ever betraying your vows, if you were so inclined, but the whole thing is just for two people to say "I'm with this person, and this person only". 

I mean, in the real world, it means "nothing" when you think about it, but to others [like me] it means a whole lot. Why is that? I honestly don't really have a good answer. I'm always committed in any relationship I've ever been in, so getting married hasn't changed my outlook on what I can/can't do when I'm in a relationship. But being married now mean a lot of things, to both of us [and our daughter], so it's pretty cool in that respect.

I posted elsewhere but my father just got married, for the second time, to his long term partner. He always told me he NEVER would marry again, after divorcing my mother. Yet after many years, and a couple of partners, he found somebody that he genuinely really wants to be with forever, [if it were humanly possible haha].

Agreed. To me marriage is a commitment where you are saying to another person "I choose you and I'm all in.  I want to share everything with you-the good times and the bad, I want to be a team, create a life together, build a future together, support each other through everything, and take on the world together."  Can you still have that without the legal ceremony? Sure, but as you say it's symbolic and offers a deeper meaning in the relationship for many people.  

Additionally, (depending on where you live) a legal marriage can also have some financial benefits.  Social Security, military benefits, Medicare and so on can be transferred to husband or wife.  You also have the ability to receive wages, retirement plan etc. from a deceased spouse.  From a health standpoint, you can get covered under your spouse's health insurance and vice versa.  You also have the ability to take a leave of absence from a job to care for an ailing spouse (Family and Medical Leave Act).  Additionally, a lot of hospitals will only let "family" into intensive care units, so if you are a girlfriend or boyfriend, hospital staff can technically deny you entrance to see your loved one.  For me, if I love someone enough to commit myself to only them, then I want them to be eligible for these benefits because I would want them to be protected and cared for in the future and a legal marriage would offer that from that standpoint.  I would hope if they pledged to only be committed to me they would want the same for me as well.
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#83

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
I can see people marrying for the benefits stated above. Other than that, i think people do it for the wedding celebration itself. Any authentic relationships takes commitment and sacrifice. Married or not, love is love. Until death do you part. 


Like your avi, Jen and Oaktree.  Smile
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#84

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(05-02-2019, 04:14 PM)Red Belt Wrote: I can see people marrying for the benefits stated above. Other than that, i think people do it for the wedding celebration itself. Any authentic relationships takes commitment and sacrifice. Married or not, love is love. Until death do you part. 


Like your avi, Jen and Oaktree.  Smile

Thank you  Smile
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#85

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(04-12-2019, 05:58 AM)c172 Wrote: When I was a teenager, I'd look at girls just as much as any heterosexual teenage boy. I thought it was kind of the default to marry and have kids. But nowadays, it seems like divorce is no longer a last resort. Sometimes, it seems like a given. Is a commitment "'til death do you part" silly to expect now? Have things changed? Is this a good thing? Why/why not?

I'm on my second marriage with a couple of long term relationships in between. 

In hindsight, I see some real value to the idea of monogomy.  My parents met when they were in their first jobs and belonged to their employers' social club.  They had a long marriage and died in their 80s.  They never looked at anyone else, never cheated, had a wide circle of friends, good jobs and were utterly miserable.  My father passed away about 12 years ago from a heart condition and, on his death-bed, he looked at my mother and said, "I'll see you again in heaven or in hell".  My mother died a few months later after falling down and hitting her head. 

As a result of living through what I can only describe as an almost unbearably unpleasant childhood, I left them when I was 20.  I was unable to form lasting relationships during my teenage years or university and ended up in some failed relationships, one of which turned into a marriage and a daughter.  That lasted a year but the after-effects have haunted me for nearly 40 years.  I decided, as a result of my own assessment of my character, never to get married again, but after several failed relationships, did marry and now have a son in his last years of school, two step-daughters, two son's-in-law, two grandchildren and my wife's ex and his wife living around the corner from us. 

I look back and think of the opportunities I had to go down the same route as my parents, stayed where I was, not moving around, hooked up with a girl from high school and having a "normal" life.  I wistfully think about opportunities squandered to have had a settled life in one place and a boring career which led to some kind of achievement award, like a gold watch...

My wife and I are inseparable.  We're stuck with each other and we'd never split up but we have a huge amount of angst from having so many children from so many marriages, in different places in the world.   I envy friends from my youth who managed to get married once and have a decent marriage and life without wandering the face of the earth.  But, whenever I've settled down, I've become bored and just wanted to move on.  Now, though, I am just worried about my son and my own daughter and wonder what will become of them.  My wife and I stick together but it's not easy at all.  She spends most of her time watching daytime TV and ignoring me and I do stupid stuff like come here or, most of the time, watch endless news coverage of Trump and Brexit as part of my "therapy", ie., it makes me not care whether I live or die.
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#86

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
I moved around a lot, starting after 9th grade. I finished up having gone to four high schools in three states. I have no interest in having kids. Never have. But I do find parenting intteresting as a social dynamic, if that makes sense. I ask myself what I would do as a father (either differently or the same). The worst of it, I think, was moving around so much during those high school years. High school can be the source of almost everything good if the parents let it. A real land of opportunity for people of the age where they need it most, in my book.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
Carl Sagan
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#87

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(05-02-2019, 07:18 AM)OakTree500 Wrote: The physical act of marriage is essentially a commitment ceremony. The paper you sign or wedding don't stop you from ever betraying your vows, if you were so inclined, but the whole thing is just for two people to say "I'm with this person, and this person only".
I see it that way too -- sexual consummation, to me, is way more significant than some outward public gesture, although the latter can be helpful symbolically.

However, many do not. I tend to pair-bond when sex happens, but that's just me. By contrast, my wife had countless sexual "relationships" in her salad days (she was a much sought-after raven beauty) and so tends to regard sex as just something that happens in a relationship, not as anything special. I don't judge her for this (obviously) and it doesn't seem to impact her understanding of the concept of serial monogamy. But it does change the dynamic somewhat. She finds my notion that sex is a Big Deal and a huge decision and the cementing of commitment as kind of naive and charming and cute but also on some level a little disappointing and unsophisticated. For my part, I find her lack of regard for it to be kind of deflating and a bit of a buzz kill.

This tells me that attitudes toward sex by people of otherwise good faith can be all over the place, and I wouldn't see it as a reliable substitute for a legally binding public agreement. YYMV, etc.
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#88

"Until death do you part". Obsolete?
(05-02-2019, 05:30 PM)Deltabravo Wrote: My wife and I are inseparable.  We're stuck with each other and we'd never split up but we have a huge amount of angst from having so many children from so many marriages, in different places in the world.   I envy friends from my youth who managed to get married once and have a decent marriage and life without wandering the face of the earth.  But, whenever I've settled down, I've become bored and just wanted to move on.  Now, though, I am just worried about my son and my own daughter and wonder what will become of them.  My wife and I stick together but it's not easy at all.  She spends most of her time watching daytime TV and ignoring me and I do stupid stuff like come here or, most of the time, watch endless news coverage of Trump and Brexit as part of my "therapy", ie., it makes me not care whether I live or die.
This is a pretty good summary of the complexity and ambiguity of familial relationships.

My wife and I love our respective children (two apiece, one of mine passed away at age 30) without reservation but agree that we wish we had not bothered, as there's just too little connection between effort / intention and outcomes, and it's quite a thankless (and in ways, endless) task. My 26 y.o. stepson, who I love and respect, is living with us and failing to launch for I don't know how long (high functioning autistic with OCD issues), for example. This was "supposed" to be "our time", but that is pretty much a forlorn hope at this point.

My wife and I also love each other but that doesn't mean the relationship is or has been easy or conflict free and yeah we do some version of what you describe. My wife's guilty pleasure is reality shows like "housewives of ..." and I alternately marinate in and avoid coverage of the Trumpocalypse. I am dealing with an ascending aortic aneurysm and I am conflicted about it because I wouldn't mind checking out sooner rather than later from all this worry and unasked-for drama but at the same time feel responsible to my wife and stepson and to a lesser extent my surviving child and the grandchildren she has added to the mix, so rather than living as I please and enjoying my final years I'm living as I'm "supposed" to and not enjoying it all that much (he said ruefully, just 2 hours after paying for his weekly abuse from his personal trainer). And when the damned aneurysm gets big enough I'll probably endure open heart surgery with full bypass to fix it, rather than just letting nature take its course.

It's quite a complex lot of interactions between people that keep them going and bring them down, often simultaneously ...
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