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Me too
#1

Me too
So I am a life long feminist (meaning an advocate for gender equality) and very supportive of the Me Too movement, since I also have a Me Too experience.

But this Biden thing - it's going too far. Firstly, there was nothing sexual about what he did, ever. He's a huggy bear type. He hugs all who seem to need encouragement in his eyes, men, women and children. He has done so all his life, it is his natural self.

Now, some of us don't particularly like to be touched, some like it from a motherly or fatherly type but not other people, some love giving and getting hugs, and so on. We are all different. 

Unless there are sexual undertones, we just need to understand that we are not all the same.
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#2

Me too
(04-06-2019, 01:25 PM)Dom Wrote: So I am a life long feminist (meaning an advocate for gender equality) and very supportive of the Me Too movement, since I also have a Me Too experience.

But this Biden thing - it's going too far. Firstly, there was nothing sexual about what he did, ever. He's a huggy bear type. He hugs all who seem to need encouragement in his eyes, men, women and children. He has done so all his life, it is his natural self.

Now, some of us don't particularly like to be touched, some like it from a motherly or fatherly type but not other people, some love giving and getting hugs, and so on. We are all different. 

Unless there are sexual undertones, we just need to understand that we are not all the same.

I agree in principle, but even before this was raised I found Biden's touchy-feely a bit intrusive, even creepy.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it.
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#3

Me too
I agree that it doesn't seem sexual or sexually intended.  Although...a lot of the people who have described him as holding their hands and going in for hugs and kisses, etc., do seem to be female.  Where are all the men he held hands with through meetings?  That he kissed on the back of the head?  

One could argue that his assumption that it's okay for him to routinely invade other people's physical space is the product of his gender and status.   And that his gender/status meant that people were afraid to ask him to stop.   Finally, that he seems to see these acts as paternal rather than sexual doesn't really make it all that much better, from my POV.  

The reason the creepy aunt or grandma who grabs a cheek or smacks a sloppy wet kiss onto all the squirming kids every holiday gets away with that kind of behavior, even when the kids don't like it, is because the parents side with the adult over the kids.  The adult has more power and the kids have to shut up and take it.  That's a bad dynamic in family situations, but even worse in business situations.
god, ugh
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#4

Me too
It's just something to keep him out of the race.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#5

Me too
(04-06-2019, 01:39 PM)Chas Wrote: I agree in principle, but even before this was raised I found Biden's touchy-feely a bit intrusive, even creepy.

Not just that -- but taking someone of the opposite gender by the shoulders, and delivering a long kiss to their hair -- that does have sexual overtones, to me. That's not the way I'd kiss my grandmother or your son, that's for sure. I Doubt he meant it that way, but anyone with half-a-lick of common sense would understand that the object of such affection would be likely to interpret it sexually even though that wasn't the intent.

Beyond that, I do not like strangers touching me without permission -- period.
"What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?" -- Frank Herbert
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#6

Me too
(04-06-2019, 01:50 PM)julep Wrote: One could argue that his assumption that it's okay for him to routinely invade other people's physical space is the product of his gender and status.   And that his gender/status meant that people were afraid to ask him to stop.   Finally, that he seems to see these acts as paternal rather than sexual doesn't really make it all that much better, from my POV.  

From what little I know about this, that was the takeaway I had. Doing things like kissing a woman's head is more paternal than sexual, but it's still super creepy and off putting. One doesn't have to be doing sexual stuff to make people uncomfortable.
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#7

Me too
(04-06-2019, 02:20 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 01:50 PM)julep Wrote: One could argue that his assumption that it's okay for him to routinely invade other people's physical space is the product of his gender and status.   And that his gender/status meant that people were afraid to ask him to stop.   Finally, that he seems to see these acts as paternal rather than sexual doesn't really make it all that much better, from my POV.  

From what little I know about this, that was the takeaway I had. Doing things like kissing a woman's head is more paternal than sexual, but it's still super creepy and off putting. One doesn't have to be doing sexual stuff to make people uncomfortable.

Well, there are a ton of pictures of him hugging males. Yes, I haven't seen one of him kissing a man slowly on the head (she said slowly, which implies tenderness, not long, which implies more of a sexual thing), but he hugs men and grabs them by the shoulders and gives them a gentle shake....

Personally, I am not at all touchy feely. But I don't think it's right to force other people to abandon all physical contact. Because with this type scrutiny, you will end up with a society where people can't act naturally around each other anymore and are even more alienated from each other than they are already.

I think we need to allow people's individual personalities, but speak up when we don't like something. I have been in families where everyone hugged and kissed all the time. It's natural for them. My family never did any of it. Maybe I am the one who is missing something that would be a good thing? I don't get any comfort from it, should I prevent others from being able to obtain that comfort?
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#8

Me too
That's Joe just being Joe includes all the times he shot off his mouth in inappropriate ways.
He's fortunate to have gotten as far as he has in politics LOL.
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#9

Me too
(04-06-2019, 02:56 PM)skyking Wrote: That's Joe just being Joe includes all the times he shot off his mouth in inappropriate ways.
He's fortunate to have gotten as far as he has in politics LOL.

I don't mean the thread to be about Biden in particular, but about hugging in general. He just happens to be a current example of problems with showing public affection towards others.
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#10

Me too
I'm one of those huggy guys, and I have learned to tone it down.
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#11

Me too
(04-06-2019, 03:04 PM)skyking Wrote: I'm one of those huggy guys, and I have learned to tone it down.

Just keep it with friends. The only issue with the "huggy people" is when they hugg people who barely know them or in a professional setting.
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#12

Me too
(04-06-2019, 01:53 PM)brewerb Wrote: It's just something to keep him out of the race.

This. The far left knows he'll win the nomination if he enters the race. He's not progressive enough.
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#13

Me too
(04-06-2019, 04:37 PM)Grim Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 01:53 PM)brewerb Wrote: It's just something to keep him out of the race.

This. The far left knows he'll win the nomination if he enters the race. He's not progressive enough.

This is true, but the thread is not about him, that would belong in the thread about candidates who are announcing. I am talking about a social phenomenon regarding physical contact, not a political one. We have enough Trump and election threads already.
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#14

Me too
(04-06-2019, 02:53 PM)Dom Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 02:20 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 01:50 PM)julep Wrote: One could argue that his assumption that it's okay for him to routinely invade other people's physical space is the product of his gender and status.   And that his gender/status meant that people were afraid to ask him to stop.   Finally, that he seems to see these acts as paternal rather than sexual doesn't really make it all that much better, from my POV.  

From what little I know about this, that was the takeaway I had. Doing things like kissing a woman's head is more paternal than sexual, but it's still super creepy and off putting. One doesn't have to be doing sexual stuff to make people uncomfortable.

Well, there are a ton of pictures of him hugging males. Yes, I haven't seen one of him kissing a man slowly on the head (she said slowly, which implies tenderness, not long, which implies more of a sexual thing), but he hugs men and grabs them by the shoulders and gives them a gentle shake....

Personally, I am not at all touchy feely. But I don't think it's right to force other people to abandon all physical contact. Because with this type scrutiny, you will end up with a society where people can't act naturally around each other anymore and are even more alienated from each other than they are already.

I think we need to allow people's individual personalities, but speak up when we don't like something. I have been in families where everyone hugged and kissed all the time. It's natural for them. My family never did any of it. Maybe I am the one who is missing something that would be a good thing? I don't get any comfort from it, should I prevent others from being able to obtain that comfort?

But isn't the issue precisely that the people who weren't comfortable with Biden's touchy-feely ways didn't feel able to speak up?  And that Biden didn't seem to consider the possibility that his hugs and kisses and handholding, etc., might be unwelcome?  Maybe this was because he truly couldn't conceive that a grown woman acquaintance might not want him to kiss her hair (ugh ugh ugh).  Or maybe he just didn't care.   ("When you're a star the VP, they let you do it...")  

Most people recognize that there are different boundaries with their families and friends than with their work colleagues--but the more power someone has in the work hierarchy, the more likely they are to overstep those boundaries.   Both because of personal preference and as a dominance display.  I have no problem with someone being touchy-feely with friends and family, but I think it's inappropriate in the workplace when you don't know much about other people's personal history or sensory makeup.
god, ugh
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#15

Me too
(04-06-2019, 02:53 PM)Dom Wrote: Well, there are a ton of pictures of him hugging males. Yes, I haven't seen one of him kissing a man slowly on the head (she said slowly, which implies tenderness, not long, which implies more of a sexual thing), but he hugs men and grabs them by the shoulders and gives them a gentle shake....

I think the issue is both that hugging and kissing aren't the same thing, plus people aren't as off-put by the hug.


(04-06-2019, 02:53 PM)Dom Wrote: Personally, I am not at all touchy feely. But I don't think it's right to force other people to abandon all physical contact. Because with this type scrutiny, you will end up with a society where people can't act naturally around each other anymore and are even more alienated from each other than they are already.

I think we need to allow people's individual personalities, but speak up when we don't like something. I have been in families where everyone hugged and kissed all the time. It's natural for them. My family never did any of it. Maybe I am the one who is missing something that would be a good thing? I don't get any comfort from it, should I prevent others from being able to obtain that comfort?

It's tricky. On one side, you have a person who wants to express themselves by touching other people, and on the other, you have someone who doesn't want to be touched (that way). I would generally side with the second person.

Certainly, you can't always know how a person feels, but as a larger society, we tend to take handshakes as acceptable. The nice thing about a handshake is that the other person can just not shake your hand if they don't want to. Similarly, approaching a person for a hug is different than just grabbing them; they can say no or take a step back. Leaning in and just kissing something is the first person just dictating how much contact the interaction is going to have.

In addition, plenty of cultures do feature kissing during greetings. This isn't one of those cultures. Most people will be taken aback if someone just up and kisses them.


(04-06-2019, 04:37 PM)Grim Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 01:53 PM)brewerb Wrote: It's just something to keep him out of the race.

This. The far left knows he'll win the nomination if he enters the race. He's not progressive enough.

I think it's both that, and I'm sure the GOP would like him to stay out of the race, as well. Obviously, a billion things can change in the next 19 months, but Biden seems to be in the best position to win the general election (or, at least people seem to think that).
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#16

Me too
(04-06-2019, 01:50 PM)julep Wrote: I agree that it doesn't seem sexual or sexually intended.  Although...a lot of the people who have described him as holding their hands and going in for hugs and kisses, etc., do seem to be female.  Where are all the men he held hands with through meetings?  That he kissed on the back of the head?  

One could argue that his assumption that it's okay for him to routinely invade other people's physical space is the product of his gender and status.   And that his gender/status meant that people were afraid to ask him to stop.   Finally, that he seems to see these acts as paternal rather than sexual doesn't really make it all that much better, from my POV.  

The reason the creepy aunt or grandma who grabs a cheek or smacks a sloppy wet kiss onto all the squirming kids every holiday gets away with that kind of behavior, even when the kids don't like it, is because the parents side with the adult over the kids.  The adult has more power and the kids have to shut up and take it.  That's a bad dynamic in family situations, but even worse in business situations.

Yeah one of the things I taught my kids is that they can refuse to take a hug or kiss or anything else from anyone. Up until 5 years old they were all huggy, I remember coming home from work everyday and my wife, seeing me through the window, would open the front door and they'd run out at me with their arms out wide for a hug, I really loved those. At about 10ish, hugs for dad got sparser then for mom, by 13ish they kind of stopped except of someone was sad or upset or wanted something, during those times, my wife tried a few times to cajole a hug out of them and you'd get an eye roll, I always told them they should never feel they have to. 

Last voluntary hug I got from them was 2 years ago when my father died, it was long, heartfelt and meaningful.

When I was a kid I had a couple of uncles that I really hated more then anyone else, their "greetings" were boarding on abusive, but somehow the adults in the room didn't see it. One of them would pick me up and "hug" me by squeezing the living shit out of me til I literally couldn't breath and If he'd just come back from a hunting trip with a couple weeks of stubble on his face he'd like to scrap his cheek against mine til I was sure he was taking some skin off.

The other one did something like what Trump does with handshakes, except imagine an adult grasping a kid's hand like he was trying to crush it while pulling you hard like he was trying to yank your arm out it's socket.
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#17

Me too
(04-06-2019, 05:52 PM)RobbyPants Wrote: In addition, plenty of cultures do feature kissing during greetings. This isn't one of those cultures. Most people will be taken aback if someone just up and kisses them.

Oh yes, some 10 years ago, for a couple of years everyone kissed each other on both cheeks as greeting when I went to conferences. This was an international crowd, and the conferences took place in various countries. Then this faded into kissing the air next to both cheeks, just going through the motion, and then it just ceased. It didn't bother me since everyone was doing it and it was in public settings, but the first time it happened I was kind of shocked and didn't know what to make of it.
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#18

Me too
(04-06-2019, 04:43 PM)Dom Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 04:37 PM)Grim Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 01:53 PM)brewerb Wrote: It's just something to keep him out of the race.

This. The far left knows he'll win the nomination if he enters the race. He's not progressive enough.

This is true, but the thread is not about him, that would belong in the thread about candidates who are announcing. I am talking about a social phenomenon regarding physical contact, not a political one. We have enough Trump and election threads already.

I thought it was about the movement being abused (ulterior motives). With Biden it's being abused, political or not.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#19

Me too
Biden's touchy-feely behaviors have made me cringe for years. They're patronizing in a bad way. I'm glad people are finally calling him out for it.

At this point he should just stop touching people (except for handshakes), shut up about it, and move on.
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#20

Me too
(04-06-2019, 02:53 PM)Dom Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 02:20 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 01:50 PM)julep Wrote: One could argue that his assumption that it's okay for him to routinely invade other people's physical space is the product of his gender and status.   And that his gender/status meant that people were afraid to ask him to stop.   Finally, that he seems to see these acts as paternal rather than sexual doesn't really make it all that much better, from my POV.  

From what little I know about this, that was the takeaway I had. Doing things like kissing a woman's head is more paternal than sexual, but it's still super creepy and off putting. One doesn't have to be doing sexual stuff to make people uncomfortable.

Well, there are a ton of pictures of him hugging males. Yes, I haven't seen one of him kissing a man slowly on the head (she said slowly, which implies tenderness, not long, which implies more of a sexual thing), but he hugs men and grabs them by the shoulders and gives them a gentle shake....

Personally, I am not at all touchy feely. But I don't think it's right to force other people to abandon all physical contact. Because with this type scrutiny, you will end up with a society where people can't act naturally around each other anymore and are even more alienated from each other than they are already.

I think we need to allow people's individual personalities, but speak up when we don't like something. I have been in families where everyone hugged and kissed all the time. It's natural for them. My family never did any of it. Maybe I am the one who is missing something that would be a good thing? I don't get any comfort from it, should I prevent others from being able to obtain that comfort?

I'll give up a hug to someone I'm not close with if they offer it and refusing it would cause more social discomfort than simply shutting up and getting over it. I've done that enough. But I'm a man, and that sort of compromise on my part doesn't bother me much. If you come to me up front and showing affection, I'm not going to be a jerk and front you off in front of people. But --

About three years ago, I had a regular customer come up behind me, take me by the shoulders, and lean in to whisper in my ear. I came around on my right-hand side leading with an elbow hard into his ribs. You don't have the right to make that presumption about me.

Man or woman, I don't think any person is out of place feeling that a grasp and kiss from behind is out of bounds. If you do that to me, you'd better be my lover or close family, because I won't promise no elbows. It's a move that presumes intimacy and if that intimacy isn't there, you've misjudged your situation. 

I would never do that, even on a great date, without nonverbal communication inviting it. There are other ways to signal closeness, including touching, that do not have intimate overtones. A pat on the arm, holding hands -- but kissing my hair? No, just no. Creeeeeepy.
"What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?" -- Frank Herbert
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#21

Me too
(04-06-2019, 04:37 PM)Grim Wrote:
(04-06-2019, 01:53 PM)brewerb Wrote: It's just something to keep him out of the race.

This. The far left knows he'll win the nomination if he enters the race. He's not progressive enough.

He's far too old anyway, and I doubt he'd win the nom if he entered -- even before this. This isn't political. This is #metoo being unbiased no matter the party affiliation of the guy. It's very fair, if you ask me.
"What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?" -- Frank Herbert
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#22

Me too
Have you seen young Joe Biden? The guy was a 10 when he was younger. I wonder if growing up as a superhot guy, he was used to a certain response to physical attention that shaped his views of it. And as he's gone from Zach Efron to Old Man River, he didn't adjust to his decrease in attractiveness?
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#23

Me too
(04-07-2019, 11:35 PM)jerryg Wrote: Have you seen young Joe Biden?  The guy was a 10 when he was younger.  I wonder if growing up as a superhot guy, he was used to a certain response to physical attention that shaped his views of it. 

I totally sympathize.   Angel
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#24

Me too
In my opinion, this episode was totally unacceptable, particularly with the
then 13-year-old Maggie Coons, daughter of Senator Christopher Coons...

[Image: giphy.gif]

Personally, and particularly as an older male, I would never do something
like this to a much younger female.  And you can see her attempt to deflect
his approach as he moves in for... what exactly?  An ill-advised kiss, or
some whispered sweet nothing?      Whatever, it's all too creepy.

Apparently, this moment was repeated last weekend after Lucy Flores, a
former Nevada assemblywoman, wrote about an incident where she said
Biden made her uncomfortable when he put his hands on her shoulders,
smelled her hair and gave her a "big slow kiss" on the back of her head
at a political rally in 2014.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#25

Me too
I had an American boss in my last job in Germany. I guessed from the job interview that he wasn't confident about his social interaction or didn't understand it and had learned to fake it. He had this weird habit of touching your hand or arm really briefly when he wanted to make a point and get you on his side. It just struck me as some NLP bullshit that he had probably read from a book one day. Probably described as anchoring or some such shit. Being someone who is not used to being touched though I really hated it. One day when we were talking about the code he touched my arm when trying to make a point,  I unwittingly flinched before I could stop myself and he quickly but briefly apologised.

Even though I don't in any way think that it was sexual and assume it was some body language bullshit that he had learned from a book I still found it creepy and an invasion of my space. Especially as I recognised him as having arsehole tendencies.

I've been wondering recently though why I have never been sexually exploited in the workforce. I've come to the conclusion that it's a result of having learnt to cope from a young age with physical violence by not making myself look like a victim because predators can smell victims a mile off and are attracted to any weakness or something that they can manipulate. So another reason I have escaped being sexually exploited is by being asexual for most of my life. There have been so many signals that have just gone over my head. For example, just yesterday morning I had an MRI scan and after I got back in the car where my husband had been waiting, I mentioned how it was weird how the male nurse in charge had been talking all the time about his physical fitness, how much he works out down the gym, how far he could run, row or cycle, how many pull ups he could do etc. I just assumed that he didn't have anything else in his life to keep him interested. My husband's take on it was that the guy was clearly coming onto me. I've often had men talk to me about how good they are at something that I have absolutely no interest in and I had generally assumed that men just like talking about themselves all the time. But if I've gone through life not even recognising men's opening signals then it would explain why I had never given them any chance to exploit me. Because I've been oblivious to the bait that been dangled under my eyes and there hasn't been anything there for them to manipulate.

Which was probably just as well for both our sakes.
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