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Poll: What do you think of the Golden Rule?
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The Golden Rule sucks donkey balls. Treating others like they want what you want and what's best for you is what would be best for them is just silly at best.
6.67%
1 6.67%
I prefer The Silver Rule. Don't do unto others as you wouldn't have done unto you!
20.00%
3 20.00%
The Silver Rule is clearly better than The Golden Rule because it at least takes a "do not harm" standpoint rather than interfering with people ... but neglect and isolation can be justified with it so it still sucks ass.
6.67%
1 6.67%
The Golden Rule and The Silver rule both suck equally and it's important to actually give a shit what the other person wants and values instead of trying to focus on what you want or don't want and projecting that onto others.
6.67%
1 6.67%
Meh.
26.67%
4 26.67%
Fuck all polls.
33.33%
5 33.33%
Total 15 vote(s) 100%
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Why the Golden Rule sucks
#1

Why the Golden Rule sucks


P.S. is the Golden Rule empathetic? I think so, yes. Because it's an example of doing onto others as you would have them do onto you or in other words it's about putting yourself in the shoes of another. Which is also the problem with empathy. It doesn't actually imagine something from someone else's point of view because that would require actual telepathy ... it imagines yourself in their position/circumstances which means that you see things from yoru own perspective, still, rather than theirs. It's your mind in their situation or you trying your best to imagine their mind (but it obviously still ends up very much like your mind). Empathy only works when you can actually relate to someone. Because relating to others is kind of how empathy works. People are usually not empathetic with their enemies because if they could actually see their point of view they would usually not be enemies.

Compassion transcends having to see points of view and it's about objectively actually giving a shit about the suffering of another person and actively doing something to help (without hurting them in the process).

Attached a poll.

EDIT: Typoed in my poll. I meant "takes a "do no harm" standpoint" and not "Helps a "do no harm" standpoint." But I can't correct that.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#2

Why the Golden Rule sucks
You forgot the Platinum Rule:

Do unto others as they would like to have done unto them.

With this rule you don’t foist your own preconceived notions unto anyone, this rule does require you get to know the person first.
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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#3

Why the Golden Rule sucks
I don't follow the Golden or Silver Rule because I don't expect people to behave in a particular fashion. I simply make it my goal to be honest and kindly toward others. To wit:

“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)


“The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others happy.” (Robert G. Ingersoll)


“The world is my country; humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion.” (Thomas Paine) Consider
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#4

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 12:03 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: EDIT: Typoed in my poll. I meant "takes a "do no harm" standpoint" and not "Helps a "do no harm" standpoint." But I can't correct that.

fixed
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#5

Why the Golden Rule sucks
I think they are both very basic rules of thumb just to get someone thinking in an empathetic way rather than a purely selfish one. I expect that encouraging this kind of thinking as a child will lead to kinder adults.

I agree with FC, the more nuanced version is to treat people as they wish to be treated. But of course, every blanket rule has exceptions when it comes to morality. For example, someone might wish you to kill them because they are depressed or delusional, but it would be argued by most that you should look after their best interests rather than their immediate desires. What exactly constitutes best interests, and who gets a say in it, is up for debate of course.

(And of course, when dealing with children, you’ll simply spoil them if you give them everything they want!)
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#6

Why the Golden Rule sucks
"Absolutely speaking, Do unto others as you would that they should do unto you, is by no means a golden rule, but the best of current silver. An honest man would have but little occasion for it. It is golden not to have any rule at all in such a case. The book has never been written which is to be accepted without any allowance."
-- Henry David Thoreau, A Week On the Concord and Merrimack Rivers
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#7

Why the Golden Rule sucks
*shrugs* I like the rule.
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#8

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 03:15 PM)mlmooney89 Wrote: *shrugs* I like the rule.

It is still one of the highlights of the Bible.  How much can one reasonably expect from a simple rule of thumb?
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#9

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 12:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote: You forgot the Platinum Rule:

Do unto others as they would like to have done unto them.

With this rule you don’t foist your own preconceived notions unto anyone, this rule does require you get to know the person first.

Um.............. nope. I can think of all kinds of requests from others that I would never act on.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#10

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 02:58 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote: "Absolutely speaking, Do unto others as you would that they should do unto you, is by no means a golden rule, but the best of current silver. An honest man would have but little occasion for it. It is golden not to have any rule at all in such a case. The book has never been written which is to be accepted without any allowance."  
-- Henry David Thoreau, A Week On the Concord and Merrimack Rivers


That one quote alone justifies your choice of username.

That is the thing about ethics and the obsession with morality that has always put me off.  Sometimes it just feels like an effort to reduce human interaction to a decision tree requiring no further deliberation beyond the sorting of experience into categories.  Why live at all if one finds new encounters and new choices so burdensome?
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#11

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 03:23 PM)Mark Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 02:58 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote: "Absolutely speaking, Do unto others as you would that they should do unto you, is by no means a golden rule, but the best of current silver. An honest man would have but little occasion for it. It is golden not to have any rule at all in such a case. The book has never been written which is to be accepted without any allowance."  
-- Henry David Thoreau, A Week On the Concord and Merrimack Rivers


That one quote alone justifies your choice of username.

That is the thing about ethics and the obsession with morality that has always put me off.  Sometimes it just feels like an effort to reduce human interaction to a decision tree requiring no further deliberation beyond the sorting of experience into categories.  Why live at all if one finds new encounters and new choices so burdensome?
when an encounter with others elicits spontaneous smile or grin or nod or that knowing look, it transcends all the philosophy and flowery writing on the subject.
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#12

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 12:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote: You forgot the Platinum Rule:

Do unto others as they would like to have done unto them.

With this rule you don’t foist your own preconceived notions unto anyone, this rule does require you get to know the person first.

(01-28-2019, 12:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote: You forgot the Platinum Rule:

Do unto others as they would like to have done unto them.

Good catch.

I didn't forget it I just forgot that it has a name. You're right, there's a rule called "The Platinum Rule" and it's awesome.

The Platinum Rule is actually implicitly embedded in option #4 of the poll. I just failed to remember that that's called the platinum rule and I also said something in there about how both the other two rules suck ass.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#13

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 01:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 12:03 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: EDIT: Typoed in my poll. I meant "takes a "do no harm" standpoint" and not "Helps a "do no harm" standpoint." But I can't correct that.

fixed

Thank you! Smile
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#14

Why the Golden Rule sucks
Golden Shower Rule?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#15

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 03:18 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 03:15 PM)mlmooney89 Wrote: *shrugs* I like the rule.

It is still one of the highlights of the Bible.  How much can one reasonably expect from a simple rule of thumb?

Not much. But better rules are still better!
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#16

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 03:23 PM)Mark Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 02:58 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote: "Absolutely speaking, Do unto others as you would that they should do unto you, is by no means a golden rule, but the best of current silver. An honest man would have but little occasion for it. It is golden not to have any rule at all in such a case. The book has never been written which is to be accepted without any allowance."  
-- Henry David Thoreau, A Week On the Concord and Merrimack Rivers


That one quote alone justifies your choice of username.

That is the thing about ethics and the obsession with morality that has always put me off.  Sometimes it just feels like an effort to reduce human interaction to a decision tree requiring no further deliberation beyond the sorting of experience into categories.  Why live at all if one finds new encounters and new choices so burdensome?

Thing I admire most of all about Thoreau:

Quote:Thoreau spent no less than three hours a day outside, typically walking amidst the very willows and frogs, elements of nature, that would set off his fits of absorption, what some may consider symptoms of cultivated presence, while others speculate Socrates may have been victim to cataleptic fits (not unlike Robert Pirsig’s experience of ‘hard enlightenment’, where interviewer Tim Adams writes “he either found enlightenment, or went insane, depending on how you look at it”).

But Thoreau’s condition does not appear sudden, distressing, nor cataleptic. His self-diagnosis reads like the aspiration of ardent meditators, the state of constant wonder towards which philosophers aspire:

“By some fortunate coincidence of thought or circumstance I am attuned to the universe, I am fitted to hear, my being moves in a sphere of melody, my fancy and imagination are excited to an inconceivable degree…Now this is the verdict of a soul in health.”

It rings somewhat sacrilegious to speculate about the ‘purpose’ of presence, but if we do, might Thoreau’s self-reported condition provide an example? An, idiosyncratic to be sure, blueprint of what cultivating presence might look like: staring at a tree for 10 minutes, or listening in stillness to croaking frogs for half an hour. When Thoreau stands listening to the frogs, he is not aware of himself as Henry who is listening to frogs, his entire awareness has collapsed upon the croaking, so that for however long he remains, he is the croaking frogs.

More broadly, a cultivated availability to those wormholes through which an individual consciousness learns to progressively forget itself.

In this sense, presence seems a vulnerability, an openness where self-preoccupation once contracted the mind. Thoreau himself did not share similar openness with the affairs of mankind, which he often derided as trivial and repulsive, preferring his position in untainted nature.

Source: https://medium.com/@OshanJarow/the-anato...d5008f069a
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#17

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 03:23 PM)Mark Wrote: Sometimes it just feels like an effort to reduce human interaction to a decision tree requiring no further deliberation beyond the sorting of experience into categories.  

I have the opposite viewpoint. I think that morality should be rational, logical and be made using philosophy and decision trees ... and I think that human interaction clouds matters. I think that many highly sociable and interactive people ... may be friendly ... but it certainly doesn't make them moral.

And, hell, a manipulative psychopath is certainly more interested in "interaction" and doesn't give a fuck about what's actually objectively moral.

I think that philosophy and rational morality is the golden mean in the middle between absolutist religious immorality on the one hand ... and overly vicarious and overemotional socialization on the other hand (I'm still of the position that empathy does more harm than good, ala Paul Bloom).
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#18

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 03:37 PM)skyking Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 03:23 PM)Mark Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 02:58 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote: "Absolutely speaking, Do unto others as you would that they should do unto you, is by no means a golden rule, but the best of current silver. An honest man would have but little occasion for it. It is golden not to have any rule at all in such a case. The book has never been written which is to be accepted without any allowance."  
-- Henry David Thoreau, A Week On the Concord and Merrimack Rivers


That one quote alone justifies your choice of username.

That is the thing about ethics and the obsession with morality that has always put me off.  Sometimes it just feels like an effort to reduce human interaction to a decision tree requiring no further deliberation beyond the sorting of experience into categories.  Why live at all if one finds new encounters and new choices so burdensome?
when an encounter with others elicits spontaneous smile or grin or nod or that knowing look, it transcends all the philosophy and flowery writing on the subject.

When people mistake such superficial pieces of body language for being a good person ... despite the fact that such friendly and sociable people are still perfectly capable of simultaneously being psychopathic and dangerous ... it is quite obvious that ethical philosophy transcends all of that "human" nonsense.

Unfortunately, being human is very often not being humane. People are shitty and it's quite easy for a friendly and empathetic person to be a terrible and dangerous person (psychopaths are very capable of recognizing such body language (and they don't lack empathy ... they lack compassion and a conscience ... if they couldn't empathize they couldn't manipulate) ... in fact, many of them are better than the average population at it which is why it is so easy for them to manipulate people. Autistic people are those who would struggle more with that sort of thing. On your view a psychopath is more moral and less immoral than an autist... and I think that's just silly at best).
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#19

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 05:40 PM)brewerb Wrote: Golden Shower Rule?

Piss unto others if you like being pissed on (or in) yourself?

See ... at least I shouldn't follow this rule otherwise it would result in me removing both my pants and my underpants and my requesting everyone either "Close your eyes and prepare to feel Evie's warmth." or "Open wide for Mister Avocado".
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#20

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 06:01 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 03:37 PM)skyking Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 03:23 PM)Mark Wrote: That one quote alone justifies your choice of username.

That is the thing about ethics and the obsession with morality that has always put me off.  Sometimes it just feels like an effort to reduce human interaction to a decision tree requiring no further deliberation beyond the sorting of experience into categories.  Why live at all if one finds new encounters and new choices so burdensome?
when an encounter with others elicits spontaneous smile or grin or nod or that knowing look, it transcends all the philosophy and flowery writing on the subject.

When people mistake such superficial pieces of body language for being a good person ... despite the fact that such friendly and sociable people are still perfectly capable of simultaneously being psychopathic and dangerous ... it is quite obvious that ethical philosophy transcends all of that "human" nonsense.

Unfortunately, being human is very often not being humane. People are shitty and it's quite easy for a friendly and empathetic person to be a terrible and dangerous person (psychopaths are very capable of recognizing such body language (and they don't lack empathy ... they lack compassion and a conscience ... if they couldn't empathize they couldn't manipulate) ... in fact, many of them are better than the average population at it which is why it is so easy for them to manipulate people. Autistic people are those who would struggle more with that sort of thing. On your view a psychopath is more moral and less immoral than an autist... and I think that's just silly at best).
Yes but what do you actually do? You can write all the flowery prose you want about philosophy but if you don't do anything you're just doing mental masturbation.
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#21

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 03:18 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 03:15 PM)mlmooney89 Wrote: *shrugs* I like the rule.

It is still one of the highlights of the Bible.  How much can one reasonably expect from a simple rule of thumb?

Stolen from older and wiser Greek philosophy.

Quote:Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him.

— Pittacus of Mytilene

Early 6th century, BC
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#22

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 08:55 PM)skyking Wrote: Yes but what do you actually do? You can write all the flowery prose you want about philosophy but if you don't do anything you're just doing mental masturbation.

Well, smiling at people isn't actually doing much either.

I thought we were talking about effective moral rules here? Theory rather than practice?

The point is that philosophical moral rules and ideas put into practice is better than unphilosophical moral rules and ideas put into practice. And rationality is a better guide than emotion.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#23

Why the Golden Rule sucks
the smile or nod is the result of some other action or activity shared. I won't wander into this section again Big Grin
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#24

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 12:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote: You forgot the Platinum Rule:

Do unto others as they would like to have done unto them.

With this rule you don’t foist your own preconceived notions unto anyone, this rule does require you get to know the person first.

A new perspective on an old saying. That's awesome, thank you. Smile

-Teresa
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#25

Why the Golden Rule sucks
(01-28-2019, 03:20 PM)brewerb Wrote:
(01-28-2019, 12:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote: You forgot the Platinum Rule:

Do unto others as they would like to have done unto them.

With this rule you don’t foist your own preconceived notions unto anyone, this rule does require you get to know the person first.

Um.............. nope. I can think of all kinds of requests from others that I would never act on.

If you view humanity as a bunch of demanding twits, then I suppose you might think like that.
But these rules, golden or platinum or whatever, for me are most useful when you're in a dilemma or have a few options on how to act.

Anyway, philosophy makes me break out in hives so I'm won't get too deep into the weeds here.  Big Grin

-Teresa
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