Sex offenders at work

[Tres Leches]

Eh, my preference is to not work with a convicted rapist. If others are comfortable working with this type, so be it. But not me.

-Teresa

[JesseB]

Eh, my preference is to not work with a convicted rapist. If others are comfortable working with this type, so be it. But not me.

-Teresa

... And you do realize I agreed with you on this point yes?

My contention was your claim that almost all of them are male. This is simply not true. As someone who has gone into quite a bit of detail about various sexual assaults committed against me, it's kinda a point that really gets under my skin.

Let me be very fucking clear. I agree with you. Now stop assuming I think you should work with rapists alright? I frankly don't care if they regret what they did. Some crimes break the bond of trust so severely that there's simply no going back to the way things were. It may suck for someone who honestly wants to reform, but there's too great a risk involved. It's just that simple.

[Tres Leches]

Eh, my preference is to not work with a convicted rapist. If others are comfortable working with this type, so be it. But not me.

-Teresa

... And you do realize I agreed with you on this point yes?

My contention was your claim that almost all of them are male. This is simply not true. As someone who has gone into quite a bit of detail about various sexual assaults committed against me, it's kinda a point that really gets under my skin.

Let me be very fucking clear. I agree with you. Now stop assuming I think you should work with rapists alright? I frankly don't care if they regret what they did. Some crimes break the bond of trust so severely that there's simply no going back to the way things were. It may suck for someone who honestly wants to reform, but there's too great a risk involved. It's just that simple.

I don't know anything about the sex assaults that were perpetrated against you but I'm getting the impression that when someone mentions that most rapists are men, you believe they're discounting and dismissing your own experiences. I can assure you that isn't true.
Anywho, this is slightly off the OP's topic.

-Teresa

[brewerb]

Let them work where the chance for re-offense, at work, will be minimal.

Makes sense.

It does, but where would that be? The majority position of the ladies here seems to be, "not where I work" so you'd almost have to be talking about someplace that discriminates against women by not having any in the workforce.

I can think of several businesses here that have no women working for them, and not because of discrimination.

[JesseB]

Eh, my preference is to not work with a convicted rapist. If others are comfortable working with this type, so be it. But not me.

-Teresa

... And you do realize I agreed with you on this point yes?

My contention was your claim that almost all of them are male. This is simply not true. As someone who has gone into quite a bit of detail about various sexual assaults committed against me, it's kinda a point that really gets under my skin.

Let me be very fucking clear. I agree with you. Now stop assuming I think you should work with rapists alright? I frankly don't care if they regret what they did. Some crimes break the bond of trust so severely that there's simply no going back to the way things were. It may suck for someone who honestly wants to reform, but there's too great a risk involved. It's just that simple.

I don't know anything about the sex assaults that were perpetrated against you but I'm getting the impression that when someone mentions that most rapists are men, you believe they're discounting and dismissing your own experiences. I can assure you that isn't true.
Anywho, this is slightly off the OP's topic.

-Teresa

I kinda agree with you, however. When someone mentions that they are also wrong. Again I would strongly encourage you to read the link I shared. It's actually quite good, and perfectly in keeping with what feminists claim they are all about. It's accurate and fair and thus I agree with it because I don't belong to any tribe. If feminism was always this honest I would be a feminist.

You're not an unreasonable person. I know this because I've read your responses. So I would ask you kindly to at least consider reading the article, it's short (the first link the second link is the data linked to in the article ignore it if you want, the third link is just a fact check site to say it's not a fringe or conspiracy site feel free to ignore it, read the article and tell me if you honestly don't see my point).

[Tres Leches]

Thanks, Jesse. I have strong viewpoints but I'll listen to other viewpoints as well.

-Teresa

[JesseB]

Thanks, Jesse. I have strong viewpoints but I'll listen to other viewpoints as well.

-Teresa

I greatly appreciate that. I really do. And I have no problem that you have strong viewpoints. I do to. I don't claim my viewpoints are infallible but they aren't completely unfounded. I have no doubt that your viewpoints are equally not infallible but also not completely unfounded. Perhaps when all is said and done we still end up disagreeing with each other. But that's ok. I don't require you to agree with me for me to like you, or listen to you or respect you. And hopefully you think/feel the same in that regard.

[Szuchow]

I resided with two criminals in workers hotel and it was fucking annoying. I can't imagine working with violent rapist would be any better.

<shrug>  I've worked alongside ex-cons who reformed, got an education, became social workers, and have helped hundreds of other at-risk people avoid making the same wrong turns that they did.  For a lot of those people peer-support worked where nothing else would have.

Not everyone has the wherewithal or guts to make that kind of a change,
but some do, and should have the chance to make it.

These two didn't look reformed, merely smart enough to not start shit in place where they worked and lived. Or maybe I see them in negative light as I was hearing enough stories - told by them of course - about how they were local Don Corleones - I know some people like to brag, but there should be minimum of thought put into this.

[JesseB]

I resided with two criminals in workers hotel and it was fucking annoying. I can't imagine working with violent rapist would be any better.

<shrug>  I've worked alongside ex-cons who reformed, got an education, became social workers, and have helped hundreds of other at-risk people avoid making the same wrong turns that they did.  For a lot of those people peer-support worked where nothing else would have.

Not everyone has the wherewithal or guts to make that kind of a change,
but some do, and should have the chance to make it.

These two didn't look reformed, merely smart enough to not start shit in place where they worked and lived. Or maybe I see them in negative light as I was hearing enough stories - told by them of course - about how they were local Don Corleones - I know some people like to brag, but there should be minimum of thought put into this.

There's cases of child molesters having kids they never molested. Sometimes people do exactly that, they simply don't shit where they eat. Doesn't mean they are really upstanding citizens.

[Vosur]

Let them work where the chance for re-offense, at work, will be minimal.

Makes sense.

It does, but where would that be? The majority position of the ladies here seems to be, "not where I work" so you'd almost have to be talking about someplace that discriminates against women by not having any in the workforce.

Probably some kind of manual labor or construction work. The difference in average physical strength between men and women lead to those kind of jobs being overwhelmingly done by men.

[EvieTheAvocado]

Pretty sure I agreed with you except for the part where you claimed almost all rape is dudes against women.

Rape is wrong, no matter who does it.

Both of these statements are true.

But I suppose saying rape is wrong is just something a woman hater would say ya?

No. Rape is wrong no matter who does it. Women can rape men (and rape each other). And men can rape each other too. But it's still true that almost all rapes are a man against a woman.

[EvieTheAvocado]

Eh, my preference is to not work with a convicted rapist. If others are comfortable working with this type, so be it. But not me.

-Teresa

Same. I'd have to either quit or suffer so much anxiety that I'd have to quit.

[JesseB]

Pretty sure I agreed with you except for the part where you claimed almost all rape is dudes against women.

Rape is wrong, no matter who does it.

Both of these statements are true.

But I suppose saying rape is wrong is just something a woman hater would say ya?

No. Rape is wrong no matter who does it. Women can rape men (and rape each other). And men can rape each other too. But it's still true that almost all rapes are a man against a woman.

Funny, there's an awful lot of self reported rapist women who disagree with this point you made
https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...sly-known/

Since you're probably not going to fucking read it, and still blindly assert your asinine claim....
"A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19." If we extend it out it's not gonna change by much. In fact in another place the article says "Researchers also find that female perpetrators have often been previously sexually victimized themselves. Women who commit sexual victimization are more likely to have an extensive history of sexual abuse, with more perpetrators and at earlier ages than those who commit other crimes." This is also true of male rapists. Though the last study that looked into this was done in the 90's and I've been having a hard time finding it again, MOST male rapists have a history of being raped as children by women. If you want to end rape rather than telling men not to rape you'd get a lot further dealing with female pedophilia that gets continually lied about and completely ignored. Actually you'd have to deal with male pedophilia too cause that also contributes just as much. Basically the key to dramatically reducing rape lies in preventing pedophilia somehow. How we do this I have no idea. But lying and saying women rarely rape isn't helping. You're also being sexist and supporting the "patriarchy" and all those stupid buzzwords lol....

"For example, the common one-dimensional portrayal of women as harmless victims reinforces outdated gender stereotypes. This keeps us from seeing women as complex human beings, able to wield power, even in misguided or violent ways. And, the assumption that men are always perpetrators and never victims reinforces unhealthy ideas about men and their supposed invincibility. These hyper-masculine ideals can reinforce aggressive male attitudes and, at the same time, callously stereotype male victims of sexual abuse as “failed men.”"

"Other gender stereotypes prevent effective responses, such as the trope that men are sexually insatiable. Aware of the popular misconception that, for men, all sex is welcome, male victims often feel too embarrassed to report sexual victimization. If they do report it, they are frequently met with a response that assumes no real harm was done."

Now you have no excuse not to read the article.

[JesseB]

Pretty sure I agreed with you except for the part where you claimed almost all rape is dudes against women.

Rape is wrong, no matter who does it.

Both of these statements are true.

But I suppose saying rape is wrong is just something a woman hater would say ya?

No. Rape is wrong no matter who does it. Women can rape men (and rape each other). And men can rape each other too. But it's still true that almost all rapes are a man against a woman.

Funny, there's an awful lot of self reported rapist women who disagree with this point you made
https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...sly-known/

Since you're probably not going to fucking read it, and still blindly assert your asinine claim....
"A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19." If we extend it out it's not gonna change by much. In fact in another place the article says "Researchers also find that female perpetrators have often been previously sexually victimized themselves. Women who commit sexual victimization are more likely to have an extensive history of sexual abuse, with more perpetrators and at earlier ages than those who commit other crimes." This is also true of male rapists. Though the last study that looked into this was done in the 90's and I've been having a hard time finding it again, MOST male rapists have a history of being raped as children by women. If you want to end rape rather than telling men not to rape you'd get a lot further dealing with female pedophilia that gets continually lied about and completely ignored. Actually you'd have to deal with male pedophilia too cause that also contributes just as much. Basically the key to dramatically reducing rape lies in preventing pedophilia somehow. How we do this I have no idea. But lying and saying women rarely rape isn't helping. You're also being sexist and supporting the "patriarchy" and all those stupid buzzwords lol....

"For example, the common one-dimensional portrayal of women as harmless victims reinforces outdated gender stereotypes. This keeps us from seeing women as complex human beings, able to wield power, even in misguided or violent ways. And, the assumption that men are always perpetrators and never victims reinforces unhealthy ideas about men and their supposed invincibility. These hyper-masculine ideals can reinforce aggressive male attitudes and, at the same time, callously stereotype male victims of sexual abuse as “failed men.”"

"Other gender stereotypes prevent effective responses, such as the trope that men are sexually insatiable. Aware of the popular misconception that, for men, all sex is welcome, male victims often feel too embarrassed to report sexual victimization. If they do report it, they are frequently met with a response that assumes no real harm was done."

Now you have no excuse not to read the article.

>.> I never actually thought there'd come a day where I'd be making feminist arguments like this..... lol

But right is right, no matter who says it. And while I don't like feminism I don't think they are entirely wrong about everything. I just think they don't really want equality, and I do.

My point of view sees feminism as a supremacy movement

I also think that almost all feminists don't realize this and want equality not realizing that "feminist" theory is anything but about equality if people would actually read it. That's the problem. By supporting a movement that's being dishonest about their intentions people are actually achieving goals counter to their desire. Thus you have people saying "the pendulum has swung too far the other way" It hasn't, at least not yet..... but we are causing problems by over compensating in some areas while still having areas that need to be fixed.

That's my honest view.

[Dānu]

Studies do exist that show that men who rape have one major common factor, and that is having been raped as children by females. Though I've been trying to find those studies and have failed to find them recently. Think maybe I'll use my school library to find them, might have better luck going to the source. The last one was done in the 90's.

I don't know what the statistics are regarding sexual abuse and sexual violence, but I would be surprised if they are all that different. "Research psychologists who have done longitudinal studies, following children over time, have found that while being physically abused as a child is associated with an increased chance of becoming an abusive parent, the great majority of abused children--nearly 70 percent--do not repeat their parents' cruelties." (reference: Joan Kaufman and Edward Zigler (1987), "Do Abused Children Become Abusive Parents?" American Journal of Orthopsychiatry. Cited in, "Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me)" Carol Tavris and Ellioy Aronson)

I'm inclined to be skeptical until you produce such studies.

[EvieTheAvocado]

Funny, there's an awful lot of self reported rapist women who disagree with this point you made
https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...sly-known/

Haha, I actually already read that article myself a while back.

Women certainly rape and sexually assault far more than people think. And the numbers of female rapists is a lot closer to the number of male rapists than most people think.

Still, that doesn't mean that most rapists aren't still male. It's not 50/50.

[EvieTheAvocado]

Studies do exist that show that men who rape have one major common factor, and that is having been raped as children by females.

My bold.

Studies certainly do NOT show this. People with vaginas don't molest children more than men do... nor does having a vagina mean that when you molest a kid they're more likely to rape people when they grow up. No studies has ever shown any such thing. And I'm not even sure how they possibly could because what genitals you have or what gender you identify as has literally nothing to do with whether you cause someone to grow up to be a rapist or not. Any supposed "evidence" to the contrary would just be an example of a sample size that was way too small.

[EvieTheAvocado]

Any supposed "evidence" to the contrary would just be an example of a sample size that was way too small.

Plus: A study with an insufficiently sized sample size—and that's not a dick joke—is just a crappy study.

[JesseB]

Studies do exist that show that men who rape have one major common factor, and that is having been raped as children by females. Though I've been trying to find those studies and have failed to find them recently. Think maybe I'll use my school library to find them, might have better luck going to the source. The last one was done in the 90's.

I don't know what the statistics are regarding sexual abuse and sexual violence, but I would be surprised if they are all that different.  "Research psychologists who have done longitudinal studies, following children over time, have found that while being physically abused as a child is associated with an increased chance of becoming an abusive parent, the great majority of abused children--nearly 70 percent--do not repeat their parents' cruelties." (reference: Joan Kaufman and Edward Zigler (1987), "Do Abused Children Become Abusive Parents?" American Journal of Orthopsychiatry.  Cited in, "Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me)" Carol Tavris and Ellioy Aronson)

I'm inclined to be skeptical until you produce such studies.

I have been looking I promise. I do know they exist and if I could remember the names of the people who conducted the studies I could find them much easier. but I fully expect you to not accept it just on my word. I agree with you that it certainly makes sense that when kids are abused the often have an increased chance of becoming abusers would follow from both physical to sexual abuse. oops I miss read what you quoted. Eh, so 70% don't follow in their footsteps, but think of it this way of the 30% that do if they have a common thread of abuse that cause it and they make up a majority of those who end up abusers.... see what I mean? Not saying it's correct per sey not enough data or evidence presented to make that claim, but you do see that it could be related ya?

[JesseB]

Studies do exist that show that men who rape have one major common factor, and that is having been raped as children by females.

My bold.

Studies certainly do NOT show this. People with vaginas don't molest children more than men do... nor does having a vagina mean that when you molest a kid they're more likely to rape people when they grow up. No studies has ever shown any such thing. And I'm not even sure how they possibly could because what genitals you have or what gender you identify as has literally nothing to do with whether you cause someone to grow up to be a rapist or not. Any supposed "evidence" to the contrary would just be an example of a sample size that was way too small.

Erin Pizzy, know who she is?

You do realize that studies aren't always honest ya? That's why we have peer review in science. However the social studies don't hold themselves to the same account. Their studies are thus not as reliable. You'd have to check the methodologies of those studies you're so confident in them to ensure they are worth being so confident in them. I've seen many that were obviously bullshit. And probably you have quoted them as they are commonly cited. Look what I''m saying isn't new, it isn't groundbreaking information. It was more commonly available before people with an ideological slant decided the facts were too incontinence and that they needed to play games with statistics to make new facts.

duluth model- know what this is? any idea why it's a problem? Most of the studies you think of come from this approach. It's no different than creationist science. It's starting with the conclusion and forcing the data to match.

The problem is finding the original work which is pretty much everything done in the field prior to the 90's. I just don't know how to find them. But I've seen them before in various places.

I watched in real time the "change in narrative" and the accompanying changes in the "facts" through the course of my life.

[JesseB]

Studies do exist that show that men who rape have one major common factor, and that is having been raped as children by females.

My bold.

Studies certainly do NOT show this. People with vaginas don't molest children more than men do... nor does having a vagina mean that when you molest a kid they're more likely to rape people when they grow up. No studies has ever shown any such thing. And I'm not even sure how they possibly could because what genitals you have or what gender you identify as has literally nothing to do with whether you cause someone to grow up to be a rapist or not. Any supposed "evidence" to the contrary would just be an example of a sample size that was way too small.

Also... thanks for continuing to perpetuate gender stereotypes. Real big of you.

"For example, the common one-dimensional portrayal of women as harmless victims reinforces outdated gender stereotypes. This keeps us from seeing women as complex human beings, able to wield power, even in misguided or violent ways. And, the assumption that men are always perpetrators and never victims reinforces unhealthy ideas about men and their supposed invincibility. These hyper-masculine ideals can reinforce aggressive male attitudes and, at the same time, callously stereotype male victims of sexual abuse as “failed men.”"

"Other gender stereotypes prevent effective responses, such as the trope that men are sexually insatiable. Aware of the popular misconception that, for men, all sex is welcome, male victims often feel too embarrassed to report sexual victimization. If they do report it, they are frequently met with a response that assumes no real harm was done." -source the article you refuse to read.

[epronovost]

@JesseB and @EvieTheAvocado

You are actually both correct. Yes, the number of rape and sexual agression perpetrated by women is severely underestimated. Right now, if we were to only look at the numbers of report and convictions for rape, over 98% of rapist and sexual assaulters are men and over 80% of their victims are women. Yet, as JesseB did show, women are under reported as rapists and sexual assaulters due mostly to sexual stereotypes that shame men who would reporting having been assaulted in such a way even more then women and the fact that there are still quite a few people who believes rape requires a penis. Realistically speaking, most studies on this crime, when they take into account all age groups and ethnicity, find that around 75-80% of rapist and sexual assaulters are men (for molesters and stalkers it's more around 60% I even saw 50/50 a time or two). Men are more likely to be victimised when they are boys and teenagers with a peak in the 8-16 age group with coaches, girlfriend/boyfriend, pastors, parents and school teachers as the most likely perpetrators. Women tend to be victimised for longer with a peek a few years later when they reache the 16-24 age group. The most likely perpetrator have pretty much the same position in their social circle. A rate of 75% of rapist being men would be consistent with the crime rates of other similar violent crimes.

Are men more often rapist then women? Yes, they are. Is rape a uniquely male problematic? No, women are often guilty of rape even if convictions and report rates might not reflect this truthfully. Are women under represented in rape statistics? Yes, they are. Are rapes commited at a 50/50 or close to rate between men and women? No, they are not and neither are any other violent crimes. The only crime where we can start to see some 50/50 (or relatively close to that) ratio are fraud and embezzlement and petty theft. Are traditional gender roles reponsible for this disrepency? Yes, traditional gender roles certainly play a role in the difference in ratio in crimes, including rape and sexual assault, between men and women.

As for a would you work with a sex offender? In my profession, it's impossible since I work with teenagers and young adults, but hypotheticaly speaking, I would really be uncomfrotable with such a person.

[EvieTheAvocado]

Are men more often rapists than women? Yes, they are. Is rape a uniquely male problem? No, women are often guilty of rape even if convictions and report rates might not reflect this truthfully. Are women under-represented in rape statistics? Yes, they are. Are rapes commited at a 50/50 rate, or close to that rate, between men and women? No, they are not.

This is what I said already. But thanks for the awesome post!

[SYZ]

I have to wonder what kind of employer thinks it's ok to hire a convicted rapist. Was he really the best candidate for that position?

I agree totally.  Out of numerous(?) candidates, why choose this bloke?  Spending half his working
life in jail, how could he possibly hold better workplace qualifications than all the other applicants?
Or was this a case of financial Government incentives for employers to hire past convicted criminals?

And...

Recidivism among Australian prisoners can be measured by the rate at which released prisoners
return to prison. In Australia overall, 44.8% of prisoners released during 2014-15 returned to prison
within two years, to 2016-17.

According to US Bureau of Justice Statistics research, State prisoners released have a five-year recidivism
rate of 76.6% to 2016, while Federal prisoners released have a five-year recidivism rate of 44.7%.

The first figure is pretty alarming, considering your "hypothetical" ex-con worker's been out for 5 years.
Statistically could make him likely to re-offend.

[epronovost]

Recidivism among Australian prisoners can be measured by the rate at which released prisoners 
return to prison. In Australia overall, 44.8% of prisoners released during 2014-15 returned to prison
within two years, to 2016-17.

According to US Bureau of Justice Statistics research, State prisoners released have a five-year recidivism
rate of 76.6% to 2016, while Federal prisoners released have a five-year recidivism rate of 44.7%.

The first figure is pretty alarming, considering your "hypothetical" ex-con worker's been out for 5 years.
Statistically could make him likely to re-offend.

Before looking into recidivism, we should probably break it down by crime. someone whose a recidivist for drug charges or petty theft is a very different type of criminal then a recidivist rapist. Also lack of employment and poor social re-entry are causes of recidivism in general.