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How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
#51

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 03:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 02:06 PM)Full Circle Wrote: I’m wondering what you all think from both the male and the female perspective. As men have you tried to live up to a stereotype thrust on you? Were you even aware of it? As a female do you support the stereotype Western concept of what a man should be? Do you vacillate between liking the strong, silent type and the nurturing, in-touch-with-his-feelings type? 

“Traditional masculinity” itself — the term refers to a Western concept of manliness that relies — and sometimes over-relies — on stoicism, dominance, aggression and competitiveness.

I don't like touchy feely people in general. I find it irritating coming from a woman and I find out downright unattractive coming from a man, but whereas I see the woman as reacting in a natural way, I see the man as being weak (which is just terrible of me!) I don't like completely dry people who don't express any emotion... I like emotion. But if someone wants to "talk about their feelings" with me, I may need a pair of dark sunglasses to hide the eye-rolling. If someone brings the word "share" into a conversation such as, "I want to share with you how I feel about that thing you said at dinner tonight," they have already lost me as an audience, and it's worse if they're male.   

I'm also not attracted to aggressive or nurturing people. Aggressive people make me feel oppressed and nurturing people make me feel smothered. It's really unattractive on both genders, but somehow I can tolerate broader spectrums of these behaviors from specific genders (the traditional gender roles, naturally). 

Overly competitive people are a huge turnoff for me, male and female. I'm a cooperative worker and while I do appreciate the value that competition has on the workplace (it basically drives innovation), I'd rather keep those people at a distance; male and female. I avoid overly competitive people like the plague and they will not get a pass from me because I can justify their behavior with their gender.

(01-15-2019, 03:33 AM)Aliza Wrote: I don't like touchy feely people in general.
  

Um, I'm kinda touchy feely.   Hug  

Quote: nurturing people make me feel smothered.
Yeah,  I'm kinda  nurturing too.   Grouphug 

Sorry  Big Grin
                                                         T4618
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#52

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-16-2019, 12:19 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote: Actually, I was thinking about it and I'd be curious to see where people fall on the divide between seeking equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. From what I can see recently there seems to be as we get closer to achieving the former there are more people switching gears to advocating for the later, and I'm curious what people think.

In an ideal world, I'd be all for equality of opportunity. But not in this world of privilege and systemic discrimination against women and minority groups.
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#53

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-16-2019, 02:28 AM)Grandizer Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 12:19 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote: Actually, I was thinking about it and I'd be curious to see where people fall on the divide between seeking equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. From what I can see recently there seems to be as we get closer to achieving the former there are more people switching gears to advocating for the later, and I'm curious what people think.

In an ideal world, I'd be all for equality of opportunity. But not in this world of privilege and systemic discrimination against women and minority groups.

Sorry, could I get you to clarify real quick, the way that's worded makes it sound like because there is, in your opinion, systemic discrimination you're against equality of opportunity. I don't think that's what you are saying...
Kneel mortal before Whiskey I, Lord of Dalmore, Duke of Jameson, Defender of the Sloshed, and God-Emperor of Holy Terra.
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#54

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-17-2019, 07:36 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 02:28 AM)Grandizer Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 12:19 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote: Actually, I was thinking about it and I'd be curious to see where people fall on the divide between seeking equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. From what I can see recently there seems to be as we get closer to achieving the former there are more people switching gears to advocating for the later, and I'm curious what people think.

In an ideal world, I'd be all for equality of opportunity. But not in this world of privilege and systemic discrimination against women and minority groups.

Sorry, could I get you to clarify real quick, the way that's worded makes it sound like because there is, in your opinion, systemic discrimination you're against equality of opportunity. I don't think that's what you are saying...

I'm saying I'm against the myth that equality of opportunity is possible where there is systemic discrimination. The problem isn't merely lack of opportunity.
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#55

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
@WhiskeyDebates

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation. It's not clear that the so-called toxic effects of masculinity are isolated to the extremes, and statistics on sexual violence and alcohol use seem to bear that out. You seem to embrace a false dichotomy that a trait is either useful or harmful, and that if it is useful, any harmful aspects of it should be ignored. But these traits can be both positive and negative, and the question becomes whether the balance struck by encouraging certain traits and not others has an overall better cost/benefit profile. Given the harm to others associated with some of these traits, I'm not sure an argument based on a level of utility in certain environments for these traits justifies them over alternative traits. It's also somewhat unclear what you are referring to by these traits. It's said of proverbs that if you don't like one, you can always find another that says the opposite. That seems to be the case with traits of masculinity. They can be described and selected such that their benefit is greater than their harm, but one can also look at the pool of traits associated with traditional masculinity and pick out ones or aspects of them which don't have such a rosy profile. For example, one might describe masculinity as associated with assertiveness rather than aggressiveness, and come to different examples of behavior, different descriptions, and different conclusions. You, and perhaps those who disagree with you, may simply be being selective with what you focus on and how you evaluate it. I'm only getting around to reading the article now, and there seems to be a mismatch between what the article is stating and what you have said, that rigid adherence to masculine stereotypes is associated with the negative effects, not necessarily that the stereotyped behaviors themselves are necessarily bad in and of themselves, though I believe I have read such other places. I'll have to continue reading.

There also seems to be a catch 22 here as well. If you promote stereotypical masculine behavior among males, you end up with more men rigidly attached to such behaviors, and more negative effects. If you don't promote such traits, you miss out on the positives. Some things, like the focus on aggressiveness, may not be desirable overall. But I think the preferred response would be to reconceive masculinity along more balanced lines. Both masculinity and femininity have suffered from overly rigid definition. Yet unfortunately there is a lot of pushback, particularly among conservatives, against redefining traditional gender roles.
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#56

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: But I think the preferred response would be to reconceive masculinity along more balanced lines.  Both masculinity and femininity have suffered from overly rigid definition.  Yet unfortunately there is a lot of pushback, particularly among conservatives, against redefining traditional gender roles.


And wherever there are advocates of traditional roles there will be rationalization that there is something "natural" or objectively fitting about them.  You expect it from Christians where natural is understood to mean "as intended by God". But what kind of rationalization can an atheist give?  Is the impulse just a theist holdover?
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#57

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-17-2019, 06:03 PM)Mark Wrote: And wherever there are advocates of traditional roles there will be rationalization that there is something "natural" or objectively fitting about them.  You expect it from Christians where natural is understood to mean "as intended by God". But what kind of rationalization can an atheist give?  Is the impulse just a theist holdover?

Nature is a lot weirder than many theists think.

People can arrange their domestic affairs in a variety of ways without hurting others.  Atheists don't like religious people trying to impose their narrower views on people, and insofar as they do we oppose them.  They are, however, free to practice their own ideas as they see fit, again if they don't hurt others.

Of course, we will disagree on what "hurting others" means, but that's for the courts to sort out in individual cases.
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#58

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-17-2019, 06:03 PM)Mark Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: But I think the preferred response would be to reconceive masculinity along more balanced lines.  Both masculinity and femininity have suffered from overly rigid definition.  Yet unfortunately there is a lot of pushback, particularly among conservatives, against redefining traditional gender roles.


And wherever there are advocates of traditional roles there will be rationalization that there is something "natural" or objectively fitting about them.  You expect it from Christians where natural is understood to mean "as intended by God". But what kind of rationalization can an atheist give?  Is the impulse just a theist holdover?

Atheist who believes in traditionnal gender roles and sexism, and they aren't much less numerous then religious people, base their view on a form of biological determinism usually based on evolutionnary psychology findings (though they frequently overstate the result of the research they are citing (when they are not applying it outside of the limit of the study itself) and are very uncritical of evolutionnary psychology challenges and weaknesses as a field). Religious social conservatives are also very keen on supporting their religious arguments with the same finding for when science confirms religion, it gives more weight to religion.
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#59

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation.  It's not clear that the so-called toxic effects of masculinity are isolated to the extremes, and statistics on sexual violence and alcohol use seem to bear that out. 
Sexual violence is an extreme I'd argue, and alcohol use being higher among men than women is not necessarily tied to any form of "masculinity", as there can be any number of contributing factors.

(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: You seem to embrace a false dichotomy that a trait is either useful or harmful, and that if it is useful, any harmful aspects of it should be ignored.
I have no idea how you could have come to a conclusion as far from what my argument was as this is, no offense intended. That is not my argument at all.

(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: But these traits can be both positive and negative,
This is rather a bit confusing as that's exactly what I was saying. Any personality trait can be harmful if taken to extremes, and I even gave examples of traits that are not traditionally masculine that are harmful when not kept in equilibrium.


(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: It's also somewhat unclear what you are referring to by these traits.  It's said of proverbs that if you don't like one, you can always find another that says the opposite.  That seems to be the case with traits of masculinity. 
One of my points was to say that to ascribe negativity and harm as inherent in masculine traits was wrong.


(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: You, and perhaps those who disagree with you, may simply be being selective with what you focus on and how you evaluate it.
I haven't focused on anything, I've only spoken in more broad terms, or used the examples of traits in the article. I haven't even really been against the article itself more the people who treat all masculine traits as harmful by default.

(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: I'm only getting around to reading the article now, and there seems to be a mismatch between what the article is stating and what you have said, that rigid adherence to masculine stereotypes is associated with the negative effects, not necessarily that the stereotyped behaviors themselves are necessarily bad in and of themselves, though I believe I have read such other places.
 I don't disagree with that though, rigid adherence to stereotypes is harmful in both a masculine context and a feminine context and even in other non-binary contexts, my only bugbear was with those who want to start from a standing that the masculine is harmful by default.

(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: But I think the preferred response would be to reconceive masculinity along more balanced lines.
That's the point I've been trying to make and fair enough if I've just failed to enunciate that, if I have that's my fault and I do apologize.
Kneel mortal before Whiskey I, Lord of Dalmore, Duke of Jameson, Defender of the Sloshed, and God-Emperor of Holy Terra.
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#60

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-16-2019, 02:21 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 03:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 02:06 PM)Full Circle Wrote: I’m wondering what you all think from both the male and the female perspective. As men have you tried to live up to a stereotype thrust on you? Were you even aware of it? As a female do you support the stereotype Western concept of what a man should be? Do you vacillate between liking the strong, silent type and the nurturing, in-touch-with-his-feelings type? 

“Traditional masculinity” itself — the term refers to a Western concept of manliness that relies — and sometimes over-relies — on stoicism, dominance, aggression and competitiveness.

I don't like touchy feely people in general. I find it irritating coming from a woman and I find out downright unattractive coming from a man, but whereas I see the woman as reacting in a natural way, I see the man as being weak (which is just terrible of me!) I don't like completely dry people who don't express any emotion... I like emotion. But if someone wants to "talk about their feelings" with me, I may need a pair of dark sunglasses to hide the eye-rolling. If someone brings the word "share" into a conversation such as, "I want to share with you how I feel about that thing you said at dinner tonight," they have already lost me as an audience, and it's worse if they're male.   

I'm also not attracted to aggressive or nurturing people. Aggressive people make me feel oppressed and nurturing people make me feel smothered. It's really unattractive on both genders, but somehow I can tolerate broader spectrums of these behaviors from specific genders (the traditional gender roles, naturally). 

Overly competitive people are a huge turnoff for me, male and female. I'm a cooperative worker and while I do appreciate the value that competition has on the workplace (it basically drives innovation), I'd rather keep those people at a distance; male and female. I avoid overly competitive people like the plague and they will not get a pass from me because I can justify their behavior with their gender.

(01-15-2019, 03:33 AM)Aliza Wrote: I don't like touchy feely people in general.
  

Um, I'm kinda touchy feely.   Hug  

Quote: nurturing people make me feel smothered.
Yeah,  I'm kinda  nurturing too.   Grouphug 

Sorry  Big Grin

Never, ever, ever try to offer me lunch or breakfast. This is how a particular family member "nurtures" me. Dinner, fine. That's a social event. Breakfast and lunch are meals you eat on the go or while browsing the forum with a cup of coffee. These are not social meals. We don't need to sit down together as a family to eat sandwiches and chips.

It's smothering. 

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#61

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-17-2019, 06:30 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 06:03 PM)Mark Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 03:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: But I think the preferred response would be to reconceive masculinity along more balanced lines.  Both masculinity and femininity have suffered from overly rigid definition.  Yet unfortunately there is a lot of pushback, particularly among conservatives, against redefining traditional gender roles.


And wherever there are advocates of traditional roles there will be rationalization that there is something "natural" or objectively fitting about them.  You expect it from Christians where natural is understood to mean "as intended by God". But what kind of rationalization can an atheist give?  Is the impulse just a theist holdover?

Atheist who believes in traditionnal gender roles and sexism, and they aren't much less numerous then religious people, base their view on a form of biological determinism usually based on evolutionnary psychology findings (though they frequently overstate the result of the research they are citing (when they are not applying it outside of the limit of the study itself) and are very uncritical of evolutionnary psychology challenges and weaknesses as a field). Religious social conservatives are also very keen on supporting their religious arguments with the same finding for when science confirms religion, it gives more weight to religion.


Well, like we're always telling believers there is only one thing they can't count on us all having in common.  Careful reasoning isn't guaranteed for all of us any more than for them all.

That (my bolded) sounds like code for just so stories.
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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