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How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
#26

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 02:52 AM)Tres Leches Wrote: The older I get, the more I realize there are quite a few people, both men and women, who are absolutely devoted to masculine stereotypes and will get angry if you try to suggest that men have feelings and might want to behave in ways that are outside the masculine stereotypical norms - and it's not just the hippies who have feelings.

Unfortunately for us, a lot of the emotions that we men experience but don't express are anger and aggression.  So in many ways it's just as well we don't express them.

I typically feel manipulated by my emotions, since they are so often based on partial perceptions.  So there are good reasons to wait them out in many cases.

However, if everyone is really referring to positive emotions, carry on.   hobo
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#27

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 02:59 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 02:52 AM)Tres Leches Wrote: The older I get, the more I realize there are quite a few people, both men and women, who are absolutely devoted to masculine stereotypes and will get angry if you try to suggest that men have feelings and might want to behave in ways that are outside the masculine stereotypical norms - and it's not just the hippies who have feelings.

Unfortunately for us, a lot of the emotions that we men experience but don't express are anger and aggression.  So in many ways it's just as well we don't express them.

I typically feel manipulated by my emotions, since they are so often based on partial perceptions.  So there are good reasons to wait them out in many cases.

However, if everyone is really referring to positive emotions, carry on.   hobo

(bolding mine)
Except that, according the article in the OP, 77% of homicides - which is a highly aggressive act - are committed by men. Perhaps you aren't one to show your emotions in general, including anger or aggression.
But anger is, sadly, one of the few emotions that are ok for men to show, especially for men and women who buy into masculine stereotypes.
Is it bad to show anger? No, of course not. Aggression is a problem but everyone - men and women included - feels anger from time to time, this is a normal human emotion and it's a bit dysfunctional to consistently hold back angry feelings.

-Teresa
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
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#28

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-14-2019, 02:06 PM)Full Circle Wrote: I’m wondering what you all think from both the male and the female perspective. As men have you tried to live up to a stereotype thrust on you? Were you even aware of it? As a female do you support the stereotype Western concept of what a man should be? Do you vacillate between liking the strong, silent type and the nurturing, in-touch-with-his-feelings type? 

“Traditional masculinity” itself — the term refers to a Western concept of manliness that relies — and sometimes over-relies — on stoicism, dominance, aggression and competitiveness.

I don't like touchy feely people in general. I find it irritating coming from a woman and I find out downright unattractive coming from a man, but whereas I see the woman as reacting in a natural way, I see the man as being weak (which is just terrible of me!) I don't like completely dry people who don't express any emotion... I like emotion. But if someone wants to "talk about their feelings" with me, I may need a pair of dark sunglasses to hide the eye-rolling. If someone brings the word "share" into a conversation such as, "I want to share with you how I feel about that thing you said at dinner tonight," they have already lost me as an audience, and it's worse if they're male.   

I'm also not attracted to aggressive or nurturing people. Aggressive people make me feel oppressed and nurturing people make me feel smothered. It's really unattractive on both genders, but somehow I can tolerate broader spectrums of these behaviors from specific genders (the traditional gender roles, naturally). 

Overly competitive people are a huge turnoff for me, male and female. I'm a cooperative worker and while I do appreciate the value that competition has on the workplace (it basically drives innovation), I'd rather keep those people at a distance; male and female. I avoid overly competitive people like the plague and they will not get a pass from me because I can justify their behavior with their gender.
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#29

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 03:10 AM)Tres Leches Wrote: Aggression is a problem but everyone - men and women included - feels anger from time to time, this is a normal human emotion and it's a bit dysfunctional to consistently hold back angry feelings.

Since we humans were evolved to promote our genes in circumstances largely no longer present in the modern world, we are naturally dysfunctional.  It's a sad fact, but one we have to live with.
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#30

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-14-2019, 06:49 PM)no one Wrote: I'm so manly I bleed 40W70 motor oil!

I bleed nerd. I bleed 3 D6.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#31

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-14-2019, 09:11 PM)mlmooney89 Wrote: I do think the over masculine thing does hurt those that are like that in -some- guys. I think it scares them so much to been seen any other way that they become homophobic. That just hurts everyone. I think if we could lessen how important it is for men to "be men" there would be less people against looking like a "sissy"

Yeah, I agree. I think it's all about why they're being so masculine. If they're naturally like that then fair enough, but if it's some sort of paranoid act because they're scared of seeming gay or unmasculine then it's less healthy.

Same with femininity. Some women are tomboys and some women are neither feminine or masculine ... but some women are, of course, naturally feminine ... and that's quite different to the woman who feels like she has to force herself to be extra feminine or else she be viewed as unwomanly.

I think it's definitely all about whether the behavior is forced or authentic. It's only the forced aspect to it that really makes it unhealthy.

And the problem with so-called toxic masculinity is: It's so over the top it's almost always exaggerated.

Also, I appreciate the fact that what you like and what turns you on is in conflict. I can totally relate to that too, haha.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#32

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 10:53 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 06:49 PM)no one Wrote: I'm so manly I bleed 40W70 motor oil!

I bleed nerd. I bleed 3 D6.

Jesus, 3D6? That's not bleeding that's fucking exploding lol
Kneel mortal before Whiskey I, Lord of Dalmore, Duke of Jameson, Defender of the Sloshed, and God-Emperor of Holy Terra.
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#33

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 12:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 11:56 PM)epronovost (not jerryg) Wrote: The ideal is of course to strike a balance between the two to be healthy, adaptable human beings.
Agreed, I think that's ultimately the goal we should be aiming for I'm just not convinced that the people leading the conversation on the topic of "toxic-masculinity" want that at all. I could be wrong, and I wouldn't impune anyone by pretending to know other peoples thoughts it's just my own opinion. I too regularly see attacks on "toxic" masculinity devolve into attacks on men, and I don't like that any more than seeing women attacked for their traits, traditional or otherwise.

That was surreal.  It sounded like something I might say, but I didn't remember posting in the thread.  Leftover tags wandering in from another discussion, I assume.

corrected the link - unfogged
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#34

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
I know that it's not popular these days, but given that the strong/weak, dominant/submissive, exploring/domestic and so forth attributes have been applied to gender for so long, that a lot of this has become innate. It's only over the last 100 years or so that these categorizations have slowly been dissolved, and no, we are not there yet.

It takes times for physical evolution to catch up with societal evolution, and while society is extremely different on this level than it was 100 years ago, chemical influences that are innate have not caught up. 

That does not mean that the environment the individual grows up in cannot have profound influence, and it does. But thousands of years of societal structure does still influence these things. It will take time to arrive at societal equality.

I believe that society is nearing the place where female equality is achieved, but it's not there yet.

So, what about male equality? Not too long ago a male single parent could not get financial assistance from society while female single parents could. Neither gender could adopt without a partner of the opposite gender. Men have benefitted from women's lib also, and this is widely ignored.

Once gender equality under the law is achieved, particularly equal pay for equal work, males should see a lot of beneficial legal changes, such as parental rights, divorce rights and lots of other things. Both genders will be equally equipped to support a family and themselves. That is going to make a HUGE difference in society and gender roles.

I see it in the future, and I just hope to live long enough to see this issue, which has always been my ambition to see through, is resolved. It took a very long time to bring women from spending their days scrubbing floors and doing laundry on their knees like my mom, to sitting in congress. In comparison, the steps still needed to reach actual gender equality are very small now.

I look forward to seeing this last step happen, and I look forward to equal rights for both genders.

Until then, since the last step, equal pay, has yet to come for women, I will remain the feminist I have been for many decades, in the sense it has always had, not in the sense some new fad would have you see it in. I firmly believe that gender equality under the law is totally achievable at this point. 

And that will liberate both genders to be who they are and do what they feel is right for them.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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#35

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 03:31 PM)jerryg Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 12:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 11:56 PM)epronovost (not jerryg) Wrote: The ideal is of course to strike a balance between the two to be healthy, adaptable human beings.
Agreed, I think that's ultimately the goal we should be aiming for I'm just not convinced that the people leading the conversation on the topic of "toxic-masculinity" want that at all. I could be wrong, and I wouldn't impune anyone by pretending to know other peoples thoughts it's just my own opinion. I too regularly see attacks on "toxic" masculinity devolve into attacks on men, and I don't like that any more than seeing women attacked for their traits, traditional or otherwise.

That was surreal.  It sounded like something I might say, but I didn't remember posting in the thread.  Leftover tags wandering in from another discussion, I assume.

Haha whoops! My bad, what I get for trying to post on my phone. Apologies brother, sloppy work on my part.

corrected the link -- unfogged
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#36

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
Both genders are equal but some are more equal than others Tongue
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#37

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 01:13 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 10:53 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 06:49 PM)no one Wrote: I'm so manly I bleed 40W70 motor oil!

I bleed nerd. I bleed 3 D6.

Jesus, 3D6? That's not bleeding that's fucking exploding lol

Well, it does have an 18-inch ordinance template to go with it!

That's right ladies. 18 inches Party0024
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#38

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 04:49 PM)robvalue Wrote: Both genders are equal but some are more equal than others Tongue

I guess maybe if who you are is a Protoss Archon then you're literally more equal than others, lol.

[Image: tenor.gif]

[Image: latest?cb=20080605165317.gif]
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#39

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 02:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:   There is no correlation between empathy, sensitivity and any
lack of fighting abilities.

Fair enough. But you've been through training (ditto), so presumably you are fully cognizant of how it works now — and the training I experienced did not in any way emphasize empathy or sensitivity. Did yours? 

Loyalty to one another, sure, but not empathy, really.
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#40

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 02:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:   There is no correlation between empathy, sensitivity and any
lack of fighting abilities.

Interesting.

But, strangely, there is a correlation between lack of compassion and sensitivity and
strangling kittens.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#41

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
Haven't read the article yet, will do so later back after work.

That said, my current thought on this is:

The ones most affected by this would be men who don't believe in it but feel societally pressured into acting all macho, and every woman who has to deal with their partner's toxic masculinity.
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#42

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
It's a little different for me because I've seen my husband scream, yell, cry, sob, fall down on his knees in dispair, stab someone, accuse others of murder,  slap someone, sing, dance, kill a child, rip the throat of a woman with a knife,  marry two teenagers,  get totally drunk,  kiss a man, kiss another woman and a whole host  of other emotions and actions.  He's an actor.  Off stage he's mild-mannered Michael but on stage, it's another story.  Unlike most men, he's been allowed to free his emotions and let them spill out uncontrolled through the guise of  the performing arts.   As a man,  he says that  acting has  always been theraputic for him.

I saw an interesting  piece on PBS (or maybe it was youtube, I can't remember)  that had hardened prisoners in the UK doing a Shakespeare  production.  I cant't remember which play it was,  but the men got so much out of it.  They had an outlet for their emotions,  anger and frustrations.   It was really wonderful to see,  and they weren't half bad, considering none of them had ever acted.
                                                         T4618
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#43

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 07:02 PM)Claywise Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 02:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:   There is no correlation between empathy, sensitivity and any
lack of fighting abilities.

Fair enough. But you've been through training (ditto), so presumably you are fully cognizant of how it works now — and the training I experienced did not in any way emphasize empathy or sensitivity. Did yours?

 Not really.  Any humanity or a sense of empathy towards the aggressors was pretty much
hosed own as being a potential chink in the armour.  For me it was a matter of internalising
my thoughts of sensitivity etc whilst still maintaining an external face of neutral resolve.  At
the time, I actually believed in what I was doing "for my country" and all that patriotic bullshit
but I'm an older—and wiser—man now.

Quote:Loyalty to one another, sure, but not empathy, really.

I guess I maintained my empathy for my fellow diggers, but not for any potential enemy.  I felt
really concerned for any of the (few) blokes who suffered emotionally under the strain and stress.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#44

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 08:37 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 02:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:   There is no correlation between empathy, sensitivity and any
lack of fighting abilities.

Interesting.

But, strangely, there is a correlation between lack of compassion and sensitivity and
strangling kittens.

Shit mate... I haven't strangled any kittens for at least... oh... a few days LOL.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#45

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 11:09 PM)SYZ Wrote: I haven't strangled any kittens for at least... oh... a few days

I personally prefer to tie up owls with electric eels and then defecate all over them while chanting "Got it comin' to ya! Got in comin' to ya! Got it comin' to ya!".

I apologize in advance if you're now gonna have nightmares of that image.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#46

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
Thank you for fixing my stupid Unfogged. Thumbs Up
Kneel mortal before Whiskey I, Lord of Dalmore, Duke of Jameson, Defender of the Sloshed, and God-Emperor of Holy Terra.
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#47

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 11:48 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote: Thank you for fixing my stupid Unfogged. Thumbs Up

My pleasure. Gotta find something to do as a mod... you guys are all too well-behaved!

Snore
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#48

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
Actually, I was thinking about it and I'd be curious to see where people fall on the divide between seeking equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. From what I can see recently there seems to be as we get closer to achieving the former there are more people switching gears to advocating for the later, and I'm curious what people think.
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#49

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-15-2019, 03:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 02:06 PM)Full Circle Wrote: I’m wondering what you all think from both the male and the female perspective. As men have you tried to live up to a stereotype thrust on you? Were you even aware of it? As a female do you support the stereotype Western concept of what a man should be? Do you vacillate between liking the strong, silent type and the nurturing, in-touch-with-his-feelings type? 

“Traditional masculinity” itself — the term refers to a Western concept of manliness that relies — and sometimes over-relies — on stoicism, dominance, aggression and competitiveness.

I don't like touchy feely people in general. I find it irritating coming from a woman and I find out downright unattractive coming from a man, but whereas I see the woman as reacting in a natural way, I see the man as being weak (which is just terrible of me!) I don't like completely dry people who don't express any emotion... I like emotion. But if someone wants to "talk about their feelings" with me, I may need a pair of dark sunglasses to hide the eye-rolling. If someone brings the word "share" into a conversation such as, "I want to share with you how I feel about that thing you said at dinner tonight," they have already lost me as an audience, and it's worse if they're male.   

I'm also not attracted to aggressive or nurturing people. Aggressive people make me feel oppressed and nurturing people make me feel smothered. It's really unattractive on both genders, but somehow I can tolerate broader spectrums of these behaviors from specific genders (the traditional gender roles, naturally). 

Overly competitive people are a huge turnoff for me, male and female. I'm a cooperative worker and while I do appreciate the value that competition has on the workplace (it basically drives innovation), I'd rather keep those people at a distance; male and female. I avoid overly competitive people like the plague and they will not get a pass from me because I can justify their behavior with their gender.

I'm not real touchy-feely either - my family is the same way and most people I knew while I growing up on the east coast were the same way. But, ya know, the feelings are still there, whether the outside world can see them or not. The problem with "toxic" masculinity is that it take stereotypically masculine behavior to an extreme, to the point where it impinges on people's ability to get along in society.
Extremes of any type are rarely a good thing. I suspect most of us, male and female, fall along a sort of spectrum when it comes to gendered behavior.

A recent favorite book (In the Darkroom by Susan Faludi) has this quote (@Mark ) has read it too Smile
There is in the universe only one true divide, one true binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

What a sad life it must be to have something inside that you can't express because you've been taught to live within narrow confines of acceptable behavior.

-Teresa
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
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#50

How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most
(01-16-2019, 12:19 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote: Actually, I was thinking about it and I'd be curious to see where people fall on the divide between seeking equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. From what I can see recently there seems to be as we get closer to achieving the former there are more people switching gears to advocating for the later, and I'm curious what people think.

Theoretically speaking, when it comes to populations, equality of opportunnity produces equality of outcome. At the individual it's not possible because individual make different choices, have different skills and varying level of aptitude. Plus, a rigorous equality of opportunity is impossible between specific individuals due to the nature of life itself, but in sufficently large number, the differences in outcome (in health, wealth, power, happiness, political and media representation, etc.) shouls be statistically insignificant. There is no "real" seperation between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome at population level. In fact, to me, this seperation is a rethorical trick to actually disguise racism of sexism behind veneer of respectability. When two population don't have the same outcome, but are assumed to have the same opportunities, then the only conclusion one can come to is that one of those population is simply superior to the other.
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