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Question about god...
#76

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:39 PM)theophilus Wrote: Not everything in the world is beautiful.  There is much that is evil and ugly...

So using your own logic, this is the fault or weakness or vindictiveness of your god is it not?

Quote:That is because we have all sinned and our sins have affected the world.

For my benefit, could you please define—specifically—what you mean by "sin".  And also what
purported sins you think I may have committed, as I'm not aware of any myself. 

Quote:The fact that the world exists at all is evidence that there is a God.

Why then does your god never once refer in his holy book to gravity, magnetism, electricity,
radiation, viruses and bacteria, tectonic plates, electrochemistry, lasers, biochemistry,
photosynthesis, hydrogen, oxygen or carbon etc?  Presuming of course that his grand
design—naturally—would've pre-planned each of those to be later discovered by mankind.

And how can it be that he (purportedly) arranged for man to land on Mars when he seemed
to think it was simply a little twinkling light on the solid dome of the firmament?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#77

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 07:15 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 07:10 PM)pocaracas Wrote: What does the Torah address, then?

It says a lot about a lot of things, but the main idea is to describe a good way for Jews to live a happy life. Also, we interpret and interact with most of it very differently than Christians do. -But it's our book, written for us, so we do it our way.

@Aliza:
Can you please help explain circumcision to me because your book seems to have been mistranslated by saying to remove the covering of your heart.

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14


 
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. Romans 15:8.

His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?". He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable". Thomas 53.
 
 
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. Romans 2:28

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:29

 
Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory. Habbakkuk 2:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deuteronomy 10:16
 

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Deuteronomy 30:6

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of your evil doings. Jeremiah 4:4


 
At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. Joshua 5:2

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Romans 2:25


 
So is the mutilation of your genitals the correct interpretation of your law?
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#78

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 08:55 PM)Snoopy Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 07:15 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 07:10 PM)pocaracas Wrote: What does the Torah address, then?

It says a lot about a lot of things, but the main idea is to describe a good way for Jews to live a happy life. Also, we interpret and interact with most of it very differently than Christians do. -But it's our book, written for us, so we do it our way.

@Aliza:
Can you please help explain circumcision to me because your book seems to have been mistranslated by saying to remove the covering of your heart.

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14


 
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. Romans 15:8.

His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?". He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable". Thomas 53.
 
 
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. Romans 2:28

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:29

 
Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory. Habbakkuk 2:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deuteronomy 10:16
 

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Deuteronomy 30:6

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of your evil doings. Jeremiah 4:4


 
At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. Joshua 5:2

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Romans 2:25


 
So is the mutilation of your genitals the correct interpretation of your law?

No. I cannot explain that.
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#79

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:00 PM)Aliza Wrote: Does it really matter? The Torah says not to eat bacon. How wrong could that possibly be?

Dual-purpose atheist bacon...

[Image: bacon-art-baby.jpg?quality=65&strip=all]
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#80

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 08:49 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 08:22 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 07:15 PM)Aliza Wrote: It says a lot about a lot of things, but the main idea is to describe a good way for Jews to live a happy life. Also, we interpret and interact with most of it very differently than Christians do. -But it's our book, written for us, so we do it our way.

Doesn't that generate an "us vs them" mentality?
I like to think of the global village, humanity united for a common goal... that kind of stuff.
None of this "our people", "our countrymen", "our tribe", "our color", "our race", "our language"...

What's wrong with appreciating that all of humanity is valued and that each of our cultures paint our perspectives differently and we all contribute unique voices that are good in their own right?

Wouldn't one expect a god to produce something (if this god was to produce anything at all) for all of mankind, not just a particular people who already happen to believe that this god exists?
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#81

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 09:04 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 08:49 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 08:22 PM)pocaracas Wrote: Doesn't that generate an "us vs them" mentality?
I like to think of the global village, humanity united for a common goal... that kind of stuff.
None of this "our people", "our countrymen", "our tribe", "our color", "our race", "our language"...

What's wrong with appreciating that all of humanity is valued and that each of our cultures paint our perspectives differently and we all contribute unique voices that are good in their own right?

Wouldn't one expect a god to produce something (if this god was to produce anything at all) for all of mankind, not just a particular people who already happen to believe that this god exists?

Yes! All of mankind has the same capacity to be happy and live a good life. The Jewish community is very happy and content with our lives, and maybe you live in a different community and you're also happy. I've met such wonderful atheist people who seem happy, productive, and who seem to live meaningful lives.

Why would you think that Jews think that Judaism is special in this regard?
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#82

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 09:30 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:04 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 08:49 PM)Aliza Wrote: What's wrong with appreciating that all of humanity is valued and that each of our cultures paint our perspectives differently and we all contribute unique voices that are good in their own right?

Wouldn't one expect a god to produce something (if this god was to produce anything at all) for all of mankind, not just a particular people who already happen to believe that this god exists?

Yes! All of mankind has the same capacity to be happy and live a good life. The Jewish community is very happy and content with our lives, and maybe you live in a different community and you're also happy. I've met such wonderful atheist people who seem happy, productive, and who seem to live meaningful lives.

Why would you think that Jews think that Judaism is special in this regard?

Special in the sense of having received the word from god itself (himself?)... Or is that not at all a claim that Jews make?
(Honestly, I think it's the first time I talk to a Jew about this)
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#83

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 09:49 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:30 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:04 PM)pocaracas Wrote: Wouldn't one expect a god to produce something (if this god was to produce anything at all) for all of mankind, not just a particular people who already happen to believe that this god exists?

Yes! All of mankind has the same capacity to be happy and live a good life. The Jewish community is very happy and content with our lives, and maybe you live in a different community and you're also happy. I've met such wonderful atheist people who seem happy, productive, and who seem to live meaningful lives.

Why would you think that Jews think that Judaism is special in this regard?

Special in the sense of having received the word from god itself (himself?)... Or is that not at all a claim that Jews make?
(Honestly, I think it's the first time I talk to a Jew about this)

That is not the claim that Jews make. Jews make the claim that G-d speaks to all people in a way that is best suited for them. 

The goal is to live a happy, meaningful life and to live in an ordered society (with laws and a government, etc). Jews do not have a monopoly on this, we don't claim to either. We do not proselytize our religious beliefs as though our way of life is somehow "superior" to another person's way of life.
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#84

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 09:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:49 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:30 PM)Aliza Wrote: Yes! All of mankind has the same capacity to be happy and live a good life. The Jewish community is very happy and content with our lives, and maybe you live in a different community and you're also happy. I've met such wonderful atheist people who seem happy, productive, and who seem to live meaningful lives.

Why would you think that Jews think that Judaism is special in this regard?

Special in the sense of having received the word from god itself (himself?)... Or is that not at all a claim that Jews make?
(Honestly, I think it's the first time I talk to a Jew about this)

That is not the claim that Jews make. Jews make the claim that G-d speaks to all people in a way that is best suited for them. 

The goal is to live a happy, meaningful life and to live in an ordered society (with laws and a government, etc). Jews do not have a monopoly on this, we don't claim to either. We do not proselytize our religious beliefs as though our way of life is somehow "superior" to another person's way of life.

Hmmm... ok, fair enough...
So, where does the Torah come from?
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#85

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 10:04 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:49 PM)pocaracas Wrote: Special in the sense of having received the word from god itself (himself?)... Or is that not at all a claim that Jews make?
(Honestly, I think it's the first time I talk to a Jew about this)

That is not the claim that Jews make. Jews make the claim that G-d speaks to all people in a way that is best suited for them. 

The goal is to live a happy, meaningful life and to live in an ordered society (with laws and a government, etc). Jews do not have a monopoly on this, we don't claim to either. We do not proselytize our religious beliefs as though our way of life is somehow "superior" to another person's way of life.

Hmmm... ok, fair enough...
So, where does the Torah come from?

Depends on who you ask. Some Jews say it's a collection of stories that shaped into the book we know today as the Torah. Others say it was transmitted to Moses directly from G-d. Some people suggest it might be a mixture of both... that the writings reflect what G-d intended and how they came into existence is not particularly relevant.
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#86

Question about god...
(01-11-2019, 02:01 PM)theophilus Wrote:
(01-10-2019, 07:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Does anyone know what god was doing before he supposedly created everything?  I mean, if he was floating around "outside of space and time"  what do theists claim he was doing all that time?  Was he just kinda hangin out?    I dont' think I've ever seen this discussed.  Wish there was a theist around who could answer my question because I'm certain they'd know the answer.  I'm sure they wouldn't just make up a bunch of shit.  No, they'd never do that.  Whistling

I'm afraid theists can't answer that question any more than anyone else can.  All we can know of God is what he had revealed to us in the Bible.  I suspect that even if he told us we wouldn't be able to understand.  But there may be a way to find out the answer.  At the end of the Bible God creates a new earth to be the home of all those whose sins have been forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.  God will be present and no doubt he will reveal more about himself.  If you become a Christian you will be among those living there.  Perhaps then you will find the answers to your questions.

LOL

You forgot the dragons and zombies.
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#87

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 10:11 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 10:04 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:54 PM)Aliza Wrote: That is not the claim that Jews make. Jews make the claim that G-d speaks to all people in a way that is best suited for them. 

The goal is to live a happy, meaningful life and to live in an ordered society (with laws and a government, etc). Jews do not have a monopoly on this, we don't claim to either. We do not proselytize our religious beliefs as though our way of life is somehow "superior" to another person's way of life.

Hmmm... ok, fair enough...
So, where does the Torah come from?

Depends on who you ask. Some Jews say it's a collection of stories that shaped into the book we know today as the Torah. Others say it was transmitted to Moses directly from G-d. Some people suggest it might be a mixture of both... that the writings reflect what G-d intended and how they came into existence is not particularly relevant.

Why do you always write "G-d", instead of god, or God?
What's the difference between using an ASCII character instead of another?


back on topic...
So, but then... what is relevant about that book?
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#88

Question about god...
(01-16-2019, 01:02 PM)pocaracas Wrote: Why do you always write "G-d", instead of god, or God?
What's the difference between using an ASCII character instead of another?

'Writing "G-d" instead of God is a fairly recent custom in America. Many believe this to be a sign of
respect, and the custom comes from an interpretation of the commandment in Deuteronomy 12:3-4
regarding the destruction of pagan altars. According to the the medieval commentator, Rashi, we
should not erase or destroy God’s name and should avoid writing it.

In a Responsa (legal opinion) by the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the primary prohibition
against erasure of the name God applies to the sacred names in a written text of Torah. With the advent
of computers and the internet, rabbinic authorities have debated whether or not this applies to what
is typed on a computer or read on a screen. Most have concurred that it does not apply.

The bulk of Jewish legal opinion agrees that the law applies only to the written name of God when
written in Hebrew
and not when written in other languages. Reform Jewish practice reflects this opinion.'

ReformJudaism.org
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#89

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 09:01 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 08:55 PM)Snoopy Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 07:15 PM)Aliza Wrote: It says a lot about a lot of things, but the main idea is to describe a good way for Jews to live a happy life. Also, we interpret and interact with most of it very differently than Christians do. -But it's our book, written for us, so we do it our way.

@Aliza:
Can you please help explain circumcision to me because your book seems to have been mistranslated by saying to remove the covering of your heart.

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14


 
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. Romans 15:8.

His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?". He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable". Thomas 53.
 
 
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. Romans 2:28

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:29

 
Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory. Habbakkuk 2:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deuteronomy 10:16
 

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Deuteronomy 30:6

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of your evil doings. Jeremiah 4:4


 
At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. Joshua 5:2

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Romans 2:25


 
So is the mutilation of your genitals the correct interpretation of your law?

No. I cannot explain that.

That's one of the reason's I like you, Aiza.  You're up front and honest and don't write a long lengthy non-explanation.
                                                         T4618
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#90

Question about god...
(01-17-2019, 07:34 AM)SYZ Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 01:02 PM)pocaracas Wrote: Why do you always write "G-d", instead of god, or God?
What's the difference between using an ASCII character instead of another?

'Writing "G-d" instead of God is a fairly recent custom in America. Many believe this to be a sign of
respect, and the custom comes from an interpretation of the commandment in Deuteronomy 12:3-4
regarding the destruction of pagan altars. According to the the medieval commentator, Rashi, we
should not erase or destroy God’s name and should avoid writing it.

In a Responsa (legal opinion) by the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the primary prohibition
against erasure of the name God applies to the sacred names in a written text of Torah. With the advent
of computers and the internet, rabbinic authorities have debated whether or not this applies to what
is typed on a computer or read on a screen. Most have concurred that it does not apply.

The bulk of Jewish legal opinion agrees that the law applies only to the written name of God when
written in Hebrew
and not when written in other languages. Reform Jewish practice reflects this opinion.'

ReformJudaism.org

Thank you, but I was asking about Aliza's reason. Not the custom of others.
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#91

Question about god...
(01-17-2019, 02:13 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 09:01 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 08:55 PM)Snoopy Wrote: @Aliza:
Can you please help explain circumcision to me because your book seems to have been mistranslated by saying to remove the covering of your heart.

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14


 
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. Romans 15:8.

His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?". He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable". Thomas 53.
 
 
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. Romans 2:28

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:29

 
Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory. Habbakkuk 2:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deuteronomy 10:16
 

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Deuteronomy 30:6

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of your evil doings. Jeremiah 4:4


 
At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. Joshua 5:2

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Romans 2:25


 
So is the mutilation of your genitals the correct interpretation of your law?

No. I cannot explain that.

That's one of the reason's I like you, Aiza.  You're up front and honest and don't write a long lengthy non-explanation.

In the past, I've tried explaining it, but I can see and appreciate the other side of this topic. I can't defend the practice to someone who is from outside my culture. It fails every time.

And it just starts forum wars.
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#92

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:26 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 03:29 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 03:22 PM)theophilus Wrote: The fact that God exists is proved by what he is created.  If you don't accept that there is nothing I can say that will convince you.

What exists around us is not proof of god.  It is merely what theists use as an apologetic: "this world is so beautiful, it must have been created by a divine being".  Bullshit.

Theists use this argument probably more than anything else to claim a god exists.  Pointing out that the universe is an extrmely violent place full of black holes eating up stars and planets, cancer that kills babies, viruses that have killed upwards of 800 million (at least that many!) earthquakes and tsunamies, doesn't sway them because they can fall back on god punishing us for or sinful ways.   Relying on sin  as an explanation is part of what keeps them believing.  

But getting back to my original question.  It doesn't make sense that an all powerful god wouldn't create the universe ASAP.  Why would a god be eternal and hang out  "outside of space and time" prior to the creation.  Nevermind that it takes time and space to be extant for a god to  create time and space, that's a side issue. Why would a god be etrnal but not the universe.  With an eternal universe it completely cuts out the middleman.  It's simple,  it's Occam's razor at it's finest.

The typical theist argument is that God exists in a timeless state. There are two different senses of the word eternal, and not keeping them straight can cause problems. One is to not be affected by time. The other is to have always been, forever and ever. It's the former sense that is relevant to the typical theist argument. If God is eternal in that sense, then it makes no sense to complain that God existed for a long time before he created the universe, because for anything to exist for a long time, that thing has to exist within time in the first place. If God exists in a timeless state, then he may have existed and the universe did not, and also he existed when the universe was created and exists. Because there is no time involved, the two "events" are effectively simultaneous (though simultanaity is a temporal concept, too). The question is whether one can coherently assert that there existed two different states of everything, God without universe, and God with universe, and also assert that there is no time involved. The assertion of two distinct states seems to, at minimum, imply time, so it seems the traditional description of a timeless God existing in both states is simply incoherent. That gets us to the alternative which is to suggest that God has always been in the process of creating and maintaining the universe, that there is no separation between the two. The problem with that is that then God and the universe co-exist, always, and our traditional concept of causation is that a cause must precede its effect, temporally. To my mind, this deals a blow to the possibility of God existing at all [*]. I have presented this argument to SteveII and he suggests that it is possible for there to be a logical ordering of cause and effect, without there being a temporal ordering (here). I suggested that this notion was incoherent and asked him to support it, and he provided a Wikipedia citation regarding the timelessness of the initial singularity, a citation which I found flawed for reasons explained in that thread. He hasn't been back to the forum since that time. It would probably be useful to you to read William Lane Craig's article on the relationship between God and time (here; it appears Craig asserts the timelessness of the singularity, though it's not clear where he gets that from). He asserts that God existed timelessly "before" the universe, but temporally once the universe existed (due to scriptural and other reasons). This, I think fails for the reasons given, even if we accept it as correct.

[*] I initially conceived of my argument as a refutation of God's existence, but exploration of several loopholes in the argument made it appear that it was not a conclusive argument against God's existence. What it is a conclusive argument against is the Kalam Cosmological argument, via reductio ad absurdum, presuming the objection about the singularity's timelessness is valid.
[Image: signature%20The-Ascension-of-Iweko.jpg]
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#93

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:34 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:30 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:24 PM)Aliza Wrote: For the same reason I stop at stop signs when I'm driving. It's just wise to follow the laws. Some of the laws make a lot of sense. Stop at stop signs to prevent collisions. Some of the laws make no sense at all, such as an unwitting get-away driver is also charged with felony murder because their friend asked to go to a store real quick and decided to rob the place. 

I don't eat bacon because it's disgusting. When I smell it, the Torah's advisory to me not to eat it makes sense. Not everyone else feels that way, so they may decide to eat it anyway. 

A big question here is what happens if my Jewish friends decide to eat bacon? Can you guess the answer?

Nope.  That doesn't make any logical sense.

Man-made laws that affect our lives like driving is reality. Man-made laws that affect an imaginary soul based on a silly concept known as sin is silly.

There is a logical difference.

What's the difference between when the torah tells you not to murder people and when the law of the land tells you not to murder someone? These are real-world problems with real-world consequences. 

Regardless of how you arrive at the decision not to murder people, the best course of action is actually not to murder people.

The difference is that those laws in society derive from a source of moral authority, the societal consensus. If the laws in the bible against eating pork do not derive from an equally valid source, namely God, but instead derive their authority from a group of men that no longer exists, then those laws have no valid authority. It makes no sense to obey laws that derive from a culture that no longer exists, if that is what you are doing.
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#94

Question about god...
(01-17-2019, 04:23 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:34 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:30 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: Nope.  That doesn't make any logical sense.

Man-made laws that affect our lives like driving is reality. Man-made laws that affect an imaginary soul based on a silly concept known as sin is silly.

There is a logical difference.

What's the difference between when the torah tells you not to murder people and when the law of the land tells you not to murder someone? These are real-world problems with real-world consequences. 

Regardless of how you arrive at the decision not to murder people, the best course of action is actually not to murder people.

The difference is that those laws in society derive from a source of moral authority, the societal consensus.  If the laws in the bible against eating pork do not derive from an equally valid source, namely God, but instead derive their authority from a group of men that no longer exists, then those laws have no valid authority.  It makes no sense to obey laws that derive from a culture that no longer exists, if that is what you are doing.

It's sort of.... You are correct that that pork eating thing appears not to make sense to outsiders, and you're right that the moral authority is either invisible or are long deceased. I'm not sure we're on the same page, though. Let me try a different angle.

Judaism has many goals, but one of them is to pass our Judaism down through the generations even when we're in diaspora. Not eating pork binds us together in the same sense that not eating meat binds vegetarians together. Some vegetarians go to conferences and activist events and they're subscribed to vegetarian facebook pages. 

The no pork thing is more like a binding factor in keeping Jews Jewish. Over thousands of years of our existence and recording our social patterns, we notice that living our lives according to our culture and traditions contributes to us remaining Jewish. (The goal is to remain Jewish). If a person's identity as a vegetarian was important to them and they wanted to keep their vegetarian social circle going, this would become very difficult to manage as a carnivore. They may even lose interest in their vegetarian events (in which case, remaining vegetarian was not really the end goal.) Those Jews who stop observing Jewish law often find that subsequent generations in their family lose their Jewishness. If the vegetarian started eating meat, they'd soon lose their identity as a vegetarian. That doesn't make them a bad person... that just means that they chose a different path for themselves.

Many Jewish people choose to remain connected to the Jewish community. An effective way of doing that means following the cultural norms and traditions that have been working for us for the past +2,000 years.
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#95

Question about god...
It's not that it "doesn't make sense to outsiders". In most cases, it's just that it doesn't make sense. We can cut out the middle man and be adults in admitting that things only make sense to those who want to adhere to a certain lifestyle.
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#96

Question about god...
(01-17-2019, 04:53 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: It's not that it "doesn't make sense to outsiders".  In most cases, it's just that it doesn't make sense. We can cut out the middle man and be adults in admitting that things only make sense to those who want to adhere to a certain lifestyle.

Yes, I can agree to that. I think that's more or less what I was saying. 

Being a vegetarian may not make sense to someone who likes to eat meat, but to the vegetarians, they are satisfied with their lifestyle choices.
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#97

Question about god...
(01-17-2019, 04:53 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: It's not that it "doesn't make sense to outsiders".  In most cases, it's just that it doesn't make sense. We can cut out the middle man and be adults in admitting that things only make sense to those who want to adhere to a certain lifestyle.

Which is why I always write "God or gods" whenever I'm commenting about religion.
I try and cater for all tastes hehe.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#98

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:39 PM)theophilus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 03:29 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 03:22 PM)theophilus Wrote: The fact that God exists is proved by what he is created.  If you don't accept that there is nothing I can say that will convince you.

What exists around us is not proof of god.  It is merely what theists use as an apologetic: "this world is so beautiful, it must have been created by a divine being".  Bullshit.

Not everything in the world is beautiful.  There is much that is evil and ugly.  That is because we have all sinned and our sins have affected the world.  The fact that the world exists at all is evidence that there is a God.

Prove it.
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#99

Question about god...
(01-10-2019, 07:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Does anyone know what god was doing before he supposedly created everything?

Well, He is supposedly a He ...

... and I can't speak for other males but I know what I do when I have nothing to do ...
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:47 PM)Aliza Wrote: Christianity claims a monopoly on morality. I can't be held accountable for the people whose ancestors who stole our book, mistranslated it, and didn't even bother to ask us what any of it means.

Deuteronomy 10:16, Deuteronomy 30:6, Jeremiah 4:4.
Have they been mistranslated?

Is the original word in your book "heart" or is it "genitals"?

 Huh


And what do you mean by: "I can see and appreciate the other side of this topic"?
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