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Question about god...
#51

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:10 PM)Aliza Wrote: No, actually I don't. I did say it in jest, though. I can't stand even the smell of the stuff, but people really believe in their heart of hearts that I'm missing out on something amazing.

The vast majority of Jewish law and custom is man-made and the vast majority of the portion that we believe is G-d given is just good advice. Don't cheat people in business, take care of the elderly, the orphan, and the disabled, say sorry when you fuck up, be quick to forgive others, don't sacrifice people; that's super douchy, and for crying out loud, don't eat ham. 

So there's some stuff that's weird!  Whatcanisay

When it comes to religion, there is always going to be laws that are man-made and weird.

If you understand this, what adheres you to the laws despite logic dictating that you don't have to?

For the same reason I stop at stop signs when I'm driving. It's just wise to follow the laws. Some of the laws make a lot of sense. Stop at stop signs to prevent collisions. Some of the laws make no sense at all, such as an unwitting get-away driver is also charged with felony murder because their friend asked to go to a store real quick and decided to rob the place. 

I don't eat bacon because it's disgusting. When I smell it, the Torah's advisory to me not to eat it makes sense. Not everyone else feels that way, so they may decide to eat it anyway. 

A big question here is what happens if my Jewish friends decide to eat bacon? Can you guess the answer?
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#52

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:18 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:05 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:00 PM)Aliza Wrote: Does it really matter? The Torah says not to eat bacon. How wrong could that possibly be?

To the religious blackbox-type mindset, it doesn't matter, no.

To me, and most people interested in honestly seeking to describe reality as accurately as possible, it is very important! I dare say the "how you get there" is more important than the end result.

If the Torah is really the work of a deity that created the universe, and he gave it to a group of goat herders, then probably it isn't scientifically detailed in the simple interpretation. Why would that even be expected? The book describes how to live one's life and develop a social order. It doesn't describe anything scientific in any detail whatsoever.

I have difficulty seeing what science and the origins of the big-bang have to do with a casual reading of the Torah, when taking it at face value.

"If the Torah is really the work of a deity that created the universe, and he gave it to a group of goat herders", it would be nice to know how that was given to them, because I'm curious about knowing how that deity created the Universe.
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#53

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:29 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 03:22 PM)theophilus Wrote: The fact that God exists is proved by what he is created.  If you don't accept that there is nothing I can say that will convince you.

What exists around us is not proof of god.  It is merely what theists use as an apologetic: "this world is so beautiful, it must have been created by a divine being".  Bullshit.

Theists use this argument probably more than anything else to claim a god exists.  Pointing out that the universe is an extrmely violent place full of black holes eating up stars and planets, cancer that kills babies, viruses that have killed upwards of 800 million (at least that many!) earthquakes and tsunamies, doesn't sway them because they can fall back on god punishing us for or sinful ways.   Relying on sin  as an explanation is part of what keeps them believing.  

But getting back to my original question.  It doesn't make sense that an all powerful god wouldn't create the universe ASAP.  Why would a god be eternal and hang out  "outside of space and time" prior to the creation.  Nevermind that it takes time and space to be extant for a god to  create time and space, that's a side issue. Why would a god be etrnal but not the universe.  With an eternal universe it completely cuts out the middleman.  It's simple,  it's Occam's razor at it's finest.
                                                         T4618
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#54

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:10 PM)Aliza Wrote: No, actually I don't. I did say it in jest, though. I can't stand even the smell of the stuff, but people really believe in their heart of hearts that I'm missing out on something amazing.

The vast majority of Jewish law and custom is man-made and the vast majority of the portion that we believe is G-d given is just good advice. Don't cheat people in business, take care of the elderly, the orphan, and the disabled, say sorry when you fuck up, be quick to forgive others, don't sacrifice people; that's super douchy, and for crying out loud, don't eat ham. 

So there's some stuff that's weird!  Whatcanisay

When it comes to religion, there is always going to be laws that are man-made and weird.

If you understand this, what adheres you to the laws despite logic dictating that you don't have to?

For the same reason I stop at stop signs when I'm driving. It's just wise to follow the laws. Some of the laws make a lot of sense. Stop at stop signs to prevent collisions. Some of the laws make no sense at all, such as an unwitting get-away driver is also charged with felony murder because their friend asked to go to a store real quick and decided to rob the place. 

I don't eat bacon because it's disgusting. When I smell it, the Torah's advisory to me not to eat it makes sense. Not everyone else feels that way, so they may decide to eat it anyway. 

A big question here is what happens if my Jewish friends decide to eat bacon? Can you guess the answer?

Nope. That doesn't make any logical sense.

Man-made laws that affect our lives like driving is reality. Man-made laws that affect an imaginary soul based on a silly concept known as sin is silly.

There is a logical difference.
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#55

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:10 PM)Aliza Wrote: No, actually I don't. I did say it in jest, though. I can't stand even the smell of the stuff, but people really believe in their heart of hearts that I'm missing out on something amazing.

The vast majority of Jewish law and custom is man-made and the vast majority of the portion that we believe is G-d given is just good advice. Don't cheat people in business, take care of the elderly, the orphan, and the disabled, say sorry when you fuck up, be quick to forgive others, don't sacrifice people; that's super douchy, and for crying out loud, don't eat ham. 

So there's some stuff that's weird!  Whatcanisay

When it comes to religion, there is always going to be laws that are man-made and weird.

If you understand this, what adheres you to the laws despite logic dictating that you don't have to?

For the same reason I stop at stop signs when I'm driving. It's just wise to follow the laws. Some of the laws make a lot of sense. Stop at stop signs to prevent collisions. Some of the laws make no sense at all, such as an unwitting get-away driver is also charged with felony murder because their friend asked to go to a store real quick and decided to rob the place. 

I don't eat bacon because it's disgusting. When I smell it, the Torah's advisory to me not to eat it makes sense. Not everyone else feels that way, so they may decide to eat it anyway. 

A big question here is what happens if my Jewish friends decide to eat bacon? Can you guess the answer?

The answer is "nothing".


Is your problem with bacon alone, or with any pork related products?
Because, I can name a few of these that are far better than bacon.
I can't understand the internet's fascination with bacon...
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#56

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:25 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:18 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:05 PM)pocaracas Wrote: To the religious blackbox-type mindset, it doesn't matter, no.

To me, and most people interested in honestly seeking to describe reality as accurately as possible, it is very important! I dare say the "how you get there" is more important than the end result.

If the Torah is really the work of a deity that created the universe, and he gave it to a group of goat herders, then probably it isn't scientifically detailed in the simple interpretation. Why would that even be expected? The book describes how to live one's life and develop a social order. It doesn't describe anything scientific in any detail whatsoever.

I have difficulty seeing what science and the origins of the big-bang have to do with a casual reading of the Torah, when taking it at face value.

"If the Torah is really the work of a deity that created the universe, and he gave it to a group of goat herders", it would be nice to know how that was given to them, because I'm curious about knowing how that deity created the Universe.

If you're curious about the creation of the universe, I would highly recommend that you take some physics classes. Probably more than one or two. Girl_yes2  

Why do you need G-d to tell you how it was done? Why can't humanity figure it out for themselves? Clearly the evidence is spread out in front of us, is accessible, and it would appear that with enough hard work, we can probably solve the puzzle. 

... So go solve the puzzle.
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#57

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:30 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:13 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: When it comes to religion, there is always going to be laws that are man-made and weird.

If you understand this, what adheres you to the laws despite logic dictating that you don't have to?

For the same reason I stop at stop signs when I'm driving. It's just wise to follow the laws. Some of the laws make a lot of sense. Stop at stop signs to prevent collisions. Some of the laws make no sense at all, such as an unwitting get-away driver is also charged with felony murder because their friend asked to go to a store real quick and decided to rob the place. 

I don't eat bacon because it's disgusting. When I smell it, the Torah's advisory to me not to eat it makes sense. Not everyone else feels that way, so they may decide to eat it anyway. 

A big question here is what happens if my Jewish friends decide to eat bacon? Can you guess the answer?

Nope.  That doesn't make any logical sense.

Man-made laws that affect our lives like driving is reality. Man-made laws that affect an imaginary soul based on a silly concept known as sin is silly.

There is a logical difference.

What's the difference between when the torah tells you not to murder people and when the law of the land tells you not to murder someone? These are real-world problems with real-world consequences. 

Regardless of how you arrive at the decision not to murder people, the best course of action is actually not to murder people.
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#58

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:34 PM)Aliza Wrote: What's the difference between when the torah tells you not to murder people and when the law of the land tells you not to murder someone? These are real-world problems with real-world consequences. 

Regardless of how you arrive at the decision not to murder people, the best course of action is actually not to murder people.

The difference is that religion claims a monopoly on morality like not killing. That is dangerous, because it makes claims of origins which people believe, leading them into delusion and further away from reality. Nothing religion does is in the name of good, for it always leads away from reality.
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#59

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:32 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:25 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:18 PM)Aliza Wrote: If the Torah is really the work of a deity that created the universe, and he gave it to a group of goat herders, then probably it isn't scientifically detailed in the simple interpretation. Why would that even be expected? The book describes how to live one's life and develop a social order. It doesn't describe anything scientific in any detail whatsoever.

I have difficulty seeing what science and the origins of the big-bang have to do with a casual reading of the Torah, when taking it at face value.

"If the Torah is really the work of a deity that created the universe, and he gave it to a group of goat herders", it would be nice to know how that was given to them, because I'm curious about knowing how that deity created the Universe.

If you're curious about the creation of the universe, I would highly recommend that you take some physics classes. Probably more than one or two. Girl_yes2  

Why do you need G-d to tell you how it was done? Why can't humanity figure it out for themselves? Clearly the evidence is spread out in front of us, is accessible, and it would appear that with enough hard work, we can probably solve the puzzle. 

... So go solve the puzzle.

Do you think I'm a believer?
Also, what makes you think I don't already have a PhD in Physics?

I was operating under you "IF".
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#60

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:38 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:34 PM)Aliza Wrote: What's the difference between when the torah tells you not to murder people and when the law of the land tells you not to murder someone? These are real-world problems with real-world consequences. 

Regardless of how you arrive at the decision not to murder people, the best course of action is actually not to murder people.

The difference is that religion claims a monopoly on morality like not killing. That is dangerous, because it makes claims of origins which people believe, leading them into delusion and further away from reality. Nothing religion does is in the name of good, for it always leads away from reality.

Religion absolutely does not claim a monopoly on morality. Christianity claims a monopoly on morality. I can't be held accountable for the people whose ancestors who stole our book, mistranslated it, and didn't even bother to ask us what any of it means.

Judaism teaches that anyone can be moral and that Judaism is one of many valid ways of living one's life. Judaism is for Jewish people and we don't need to spread our way of life to others. They're fine on their own. 

Judaism does make a claim of origin. We do claim that the universe had a beginning and that it expanded from the size of a mustard seed. I'll give you that. But you're welcome to take it or leave it. If you choose to leave it, then that's a valid choice. Only science demonstrates how the universe came into existence.
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#61

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:39 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:32 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:25 PM)pocaracas Wrote: "If the Torah is really the work of a deity that created the universe, and he gave it to a group of goat herders", it would be nice to know how that was given to them, because I'm curious about knowing how that deity created the Universe.

If you're curious about the creation of the universe, I would highly recommend that you take some physics classes. Probably more than one or two. Girl_yes2  

Why do you need G-d to tell you how it was done? Why can't humanity figure it out for themselves? Clearly the evidence is spread out in front of us, is accessible, and it would appear that with enough hard work, we can probably solve the puzzle. 

... So go solve the puzzle.

Do you think I'm a believer?
Also, what makes you think I don't already have a PhD in Physics?

I was operating under you "IF".

If you have a PhD in physics, then that's awesome! And it also makes you super attractive to me. -You're probably then already contributing to the answer of how our universe works or how it came into existence and I thank you for your hard work.
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#62

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:39 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:32 PM)Aliza Wrote: If you're curious about the creation of the universe, I would highly recommend that you take some physics classes. Probably more than one or two. Girl_yes2  

Why do you need G-d to tell you how it was done? Why can't humanity figure it out for themselves? Clearly the evidence is spread out in front of us, is accessible, and it would appear that with enough hard work, we can probably solve the puzzle. 

... So go solve the puzzle.

Do you think I'm a believer?
Also, what makes you think I don't already have a PhD in Physics?

I was operating under you "IF".

If you have a PhD in physics, then that's awesome! And it also makes you super attractive to me.

Haha... Be careful...

(01-15-2019, 04:50 PM)Aliza Wrote: -You're probably then already contributing to the answer of how our universe works or how it came into existence and I thank you for your hard work.

hmm.... no... I'm working on another huge problem: power.
Mostly technological stuff on that end...
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#63

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:54 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:39 PM)pocaracas Wrote: Do you think I'm a believer?
Also, what makes you think I don't already have a PhD in Physics?

I was operating under you "IF".

If you have a PhD in physics, then that's awesome! And it also makes you super attractive to me.

Haha... Be careful...

(01-15-2019, 04:50 PM)Aliza Wrote: -You're probably then already contributing to the answer of how our universe works or how it came into existence and I thank you for your hard work.

hmm.... no... I'm working on another huge problem: power.
Mostly technological stuff on that end...

Oh, that's very fascinating! The Torah doesn't seem to solve all of our problems, but we do have brains, resources, and opposable thumbs.

Maybe the whole idea is to use our brains to solve our own problems! Maybe we're not supposed to go crying to a deity to fix everything.
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#64

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 04:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:54 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:50 PM)Aliza Wrote: If you have a PhD in physics, then that's awesome! And it also makes you super attractive to me.

Haha... Be careful...

(01-15-2019, 04:50 PM)Aliza Wrote: -You're probably then already contributing to the answer of how our universe works or how it came into existence and I thank you for your hard work.

hmm.... no... I'm working on another huge problem: power.
Mostly technological stuff on that end...

Oh, that's very fascinating! The Torah doesn't seem to solve all of our problems,
No, it does not.
hmmm... does it solve any of our problems?

(01-15-2019, 04:57 PM)Aliza Wrote: but we do have brains, resources, and opposable thumbs.

Maybe the whole idea is to use our brains to solve our own problems! Maybe we're not supposed to go crying to a deity to fix everything.

Maybe we're not "supposed" to do anything... we just do whatever we do because we want to...?
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#65

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 05:36 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:57 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:54 PM)pocaracas Wrote: Haha... Be careful...


hmm.... no... I'm working on another huge problem: power.
Mostly technological stuff on that end...

Oh, that's very fascinating! The Torah doesn't seem to solve all of our problems,
No, it does not.
hmmm... does it solve any of our problems?

(01-15-2019, 04:57 PM)Aliza Wrote: but we do have brains, resources, and opposable thumbs.

Maybe the whole idea is to use our brains to solve our own problems! Maybe we're not supposed to go crying to a deity to fix everything.

Maybe we're not "supposed" to do anything... we just do whatever we do because we want to...?

So whether I think we're "supposed" to do something, and you think we're not "supposed" to do something, the end result seems to be the same to me.

We like surviving, we like growing, we have limited resources at our immediate disposal, and no deity seems to be magically making more resources appear. We have to solve our own problems. 

What exactly is the difference in the outcome?
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#66

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 05:41 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 05:36 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 04:57 PM)Aliza Wrote: Oh, that's very fascinating! The Torah doesn't seem to solve all of our problems,
No, it does not.
hmmm... does it solve any of our problems?

(01-15-2019, 04:57 PM)Aliza Wrote: but we do have brains, resources, and opposable thumbs.

Maybe the whole idea is to use our brains to solve our own problems! Maybe we're not supposed to go crying to a deity to fix everything.

Maybe we're not "supposed" to do anything... we just do whatever we do because we want to...?

So whether I think we're "supposed" to do something, and you think we're not "supposed" to do something, the end result seems to be the same to me.

We like surviving, we like growing, we have limited resources at our immediate disposal, and no deity seems to be magically making more resources appear. We have to solve our own problems. 

What exactly is the difference in the outcome?

The time it takes to get there?...
If we have to keep the deity in mind, we may lose sight of the problem and take longer to work it out... maybe.

When you this we're supposed to do something, you assume that what you do is already predestined to be done... predestined by someone, or something, I guess...? is that it?
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#67

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 05:52 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 05:41 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 05:36 PM)pocaracas Wrote: No, it does not.
hmmm... does it solve any of our problems?


Maybe we're not "supposed" to do anything... we just do whatever we do because we want to...?

So whether I think we're "supposed" to do something, and you think we're not "supposed" to do something, the end result seems to be the same to me.

We like surviving, we like growing, we have limited resources at our immediate disposal, and no deity seems to be magically making more resources appear. We have to solve our own problems. 

What exactly is the difference in the outcome?

The time it takes to get there?...
If we have to keep the deity in mind, we may lose sight of the problem and take longer to work it out... maybe.

When you this we're supposed to do something, you assume that what you do is already predestined to be done... predestined by someone, or something, I guess...? is that it?

I think you're projecting Christianity onto me. That doesn't seem very fair. 

Why do we have to keep the deity in mind? If we're solving a real-world problem (power, medicine, literally anything tangible or observable), then what does the deity have to do with it? 

If you find dinosaur bones in the ground, and you can date them to a bazillion years ago, then... wouldn't the evidence suggest that a dinosaur existed? The Torah has nothing to do with that. Torah doesn't even address that.
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#68

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 06:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 05:52 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 05:41 PM)Aliza Wrote: So whether I think we're "supposed" to do something, and you think we're not "supposed" to do something, the end result seems to be the same to me.

We like surviving, we like growing, we have limited resources at our immediate disposal, and no deity seems to be magically making more resources appear. We have to solve our own problems. 

What exactly is the difference in the outcome?

The time it takes to get there?...
If we have to keep the deity in mind, we may lose sight of the problem and take longer to work it out... maybe.

When you this we're supposed to do something, you assume that what you do is already predestined to be done... predestined by someone, or something, I guess...? is that it?

I think you're projecting Christianity onto me. That doesn't seem very fair. 

Why do we have to keep the deity in mind? If we're solving a real-world problem (power, medicine, literally anything tangible or observable), then what does the deity have to do with it? 

If you find dinosaur bones in the ground, and you can date them to a bazillion years ago, then... wouldn't the evidence suggest that a dinosaur existed? The Torah has nothing to do with that. Torah doesn't even address that.

What does the Torah address, then?
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#69

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 07:10 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 06:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 05:52 PM)pocaracas Wrote: The time it takes to get there?...
If we have to keep the deity in mind, we may lose sight of the problem and take longer to work it out... maybe.

When you this we're supposed to do something, you assume that what you do is already predestined to be done... predestined by someone, or something, I guess...? is that it?

I think you're projecting Christianity onto me. That doesn't seem very fair. 

Why do we have to keep the deity in mind? If we're solving a real-world problem (power, medicine, literally anything tangible or observable), then what does the deity have to do with it? 

If you find dinosaur bones in the ground, and you can date them to a bazillion years ago, then... wouldn't the evidence suggest that a dinosaur existed? The Torah has nothing to do with that. Torah doesn't even address that.

What does the Torah address, then?

It says a lot about a lot of things, but the main idea is to describe a good way for Jews to live a happy life. Also, we interpret and interact with most of it very differently than Christians do. -But it's our book, written for us, so we do it our way.
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#70

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:39 PM)theophilus Wrote: Not everything in the world is beautiful.  There is much that is evil and ugly.  That is because we have all sinned and our sins have affected the world.  The fact that the world exists at all is evidence that there is a God.

That ignores natural evils like hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, parasites, diseases, deformities, screwflies, and so on.  If you say God changed the natural world because of man's sinfulness, that's still on God -- including all the suffering of innocents.  The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Given the world we actually experience, if there is a God, he is indifferent to us. He's not the usual theistic God who cares for us. He's not worthy of worship, and wouldn't care if we did.
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#71

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 03:22 PM)theophilus Wrote:
(01-12-2019, 05:10 PM)SYZ Wrote: As a theist, you must answer that question, as it's critical to any argument about the purported existence of gods.
Personally, as an ignostic, I don't have the desire or the need to contemplate the question—that's your job as a theist.

The fact that God exists is proved by what he created.  If you don't accept that there is nothing I can say that will convince you.

This is a classic non sequitur.  Your inference doesn't follow from your premise.

It's similar to the theists saying that their bible was written by God, and as it's inerrant,
therefore God must exist.  Circular argument LOL.

And if, as a theist, you're unable to provide any viable evidence that gods exist, then
you've effectively just confirmed the atheist contention that your particular God of choice
cannot exist in the real world.

If I tell you I can fly, I must prove it to you by jumping off the roof.  It would be absurd
for me to expect you to accept my claim without any evidence, would it not? And
remember that faith is defined as "belief without evidence".  That you have faith that your
God exists obviously does not prove that it does—that's just silly, and defies all logic.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#72

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 07:15 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 07:10 PM)pocaracas Wrote: What does the Torah address, then?

It says a lot about a lot of things, but the main idea is to describe a good way for Jews to live a happy life. Also, we interpret and interact with most of it very differently than Christians do. -But it's our book, written for us, so we do it our way.

Doesn't that generate an "us vs them" mentality?
I like to think of the global village, humanity united for a common goal... that kind of stuff.
None of this "our people", "our countrymen", "our tribe", "our color", "our race", "our language"...
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#73

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 08:22 PM)SYZ Wrote: If I tell you I can fly, I must prove it to you by jumping off the roof.

Why does this trope exist?
If you can fly, surely you can take off from the ground, no?
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#74

Question about god...
And my little boy named my truck "Giddyup gah gah gah!"  Isn't he cute?  He's only eight.



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#75

Question about god...
(01-15-2019, 08:22 PM)pocaracas Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 07:15 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 07:10 PM)pocaracas Wrote: What does the Torah address, then?

It says a lot about a lot of things, but the main idea is to describe a good way for Jews to live a happy life. Also, we interpret and interact with most of it very differently than Christians do. -But it's our book, written for us, so we do it our way.

Doesn't that generate an "us vs them" mentality?
I like to think of the global village, humanity united for a common goal... that kind of stuff.
None of this "our people", "our countrymen", "our tribe", "our color", "our race", "our language"...

What's wrong with appreciating that all of humanity is valued and that each of our cultures paint our perspectives differently and we all contribute unique voices that are good in their own right?
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