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Articulating the Problems with Abrahamic Modesty
#26

Articulating the Problems with Abrahamic Modesty
Rape statistics can get pretty tricky to compare across borders because you're not comparing apples to apples.  What does and doesn't qualify as rape, legally speaking?  How much encouragement (or disincentive) does a victim have in reporting the crime?  Do police and prosecutors have to pursue a report, or can they just dismiss it as not credible on their own discretion?  Is a particular assault tallied into the statistics when it's reported, or only if it's proven in court?  If there's a bunch of related serial assaults reported all at once (such as long-running marital rape or a child being repeatedly molested by a priest) is that counted only once for the entire saga of abuse, or is each individual assault counted?  Different polities have different policies for each of these questions, and that means you can't just put the numbers side-by-side.

For example, in an Islamist nation the following is not unexpected: there is no such thing (legally) as marital rape, a woman's testimony counts for less than a man's, and if a woman testifies to the sexual contact and cannot prove it was rape then she is criminally guilty of adultery.  Not exactly an incentive to come forward.  These things reduce the percentage of rapes counted.

Contrast a place like Sweden, which has a lot of reported cases of rape per capita... but which also has a very broad definition of rape, does a hell of a lot to encourage victims to come forward, does not shame, blame, or punish victims like a theocratic state, and pursues reports vigorously.  This greatly increases the percentage of rapes counted.
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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#27

Articulating the Problems with Abrahamic Modesty
(07-19-2020, 06:58 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(07-19-2020, 03:04 AM)mordant Wrote: I feel that modern pop culture has evolved in such a way that women are taught that there is no such thing as too-revealing clothing and that one's choice of clothing or style or carriage is 100% irrelevant to human interaction around sexuality.

I don't think this is correct though it's based on a correct premise. I think we simply shifted the message a little bit. In traditional and very conservatice cultures, a young and beautiful woman is a sexual object and that's a bad thing because lust and sex is "bad"; she must dress conservatively to avoid the temptation and behave in such a way that nothing she does can possibly interpreted as alluring (yes this might be an impossible mission). In more modern culture, a young and beautiful woman is a sexual object and that's a good thing; she must show what she got and make it available to use in certain way. What has changed isn't what young and beautiful woman are or how they are perceived, but what they should do. Young and beautiful women are still relentlessly objectified, but in one she's a coveted treasure that must be hidden and in the other a valuable piece of merchandise that must shown around. It's just two different forms of sexism and objectification. The problem was never with the clothing or even the woman's demeanor, but with the complete lack of respect for women, especially young and beautiful women in that context, as equals.

Well put.

In an ideal world a woman (or a man, for that matter) could wear very scant and revealing clothing, or no clothing at all, and be treated well and without a lot of assumptions. In the world we actually live in, it doesn't work out that way. If a woman wants to telegraph her sexual availability and interest, or frequently have it misconstrued and have to manage or explain all the time, then she should absolutely do that. It's not my business and I don't see a thing wrong with it. My advice to my daughter was based on my knowledge that she didn't want to waste energy in that way.

It seems to me that the people whose personalities allow them to push the envelope without stress are doing us all a favor by desensitizing and retraining men around their assumptions and tendency to objectify, and by forcing re-examination of social assumptions and mores. But no one woman should feel obligated to play that role.
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#28

Articulating the Problems with Abrahamic Modesty
I think the greatest indicator that the modesty doctrines are a steaming load of horse shit is the propensity for repressed societies to indulge in pornography. With the vast majority of porn delivered online, it's become incredible easy to track trends in usage and by-and-large, conservatives are the biggest consumers.
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#29

Articulating the Problems with Abrahamic Modesty
In places where nudity or partial nudity is common place, they don't run around all day with hard ons.

Modesty creates this stuff.
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