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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus

Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(08-27-2020, 01:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: I've always said the words from the cross, "Forgive then Father, they know not what they do", 
are about the fashion he saw from the cross. 
Big Grin

Possibly people wearing white. It wasn't even Easter yet, let alone Memorial Day.  Sheesh. Weeping
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Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
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(08-27-2020, 01:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-26-2020, 04:35 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: It's interesting to read through the Gospel of Thomas whcih were found in Nag Hammadi.  Bucky posted the link so I thought I'd follow it.   http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom-meyer.html   He's similar to a Yogi giving out bits of spiritual advice.  


Quote:Yeshua saw some babies nursing. He said to his students,
These nursing babies
are like those who enter the kingdom.
They said to him,
Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?
 
Yeshua said to them,
When you make the two into one,
and when you make the inner like the outer
and the outer like the inner
and the upper like the lower,
and when you make male and female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male nor the female be female,
when you make eyes in place of an eye,
a hand in place of a hand,
a foot in place of a foot,
an image in place of an image,
then you will enter the kingdom.

It's all esoteric philosophy about heaven and life and stuff.  I like it much better than the four that ended up in the bible.  It reminds me of Kahlil Gibran's, The Prophet which of course is a recent book.  But the Gospel of Thomas reads like a wise philosopher talking to his students or in the tradition of Plato outside under a tree discussing life with others in attendance.   

I really like this bit of wisdom....

Quote:Yeshua said,
If a blind person leads a blind person,
both will fall in a hole.
   


Now THAT'S funny.  ^ ^ ^ 


Here's some fashion advice....

Quote:Yeshua said,
From morning to evening and from evening to morning,
do not worry about what you will wear.

Thumbs Up

There is no resurrection crap.   Some scholars date it around 60 CE some date it to 140 CE.   Anyway, it was interesting to read.

I've always said the words from the cross, "Forgive then Father, they know not what they do", 
are about the fashion he saw from the cross. 
Big Grin


Hmmm..... I posted this in the Laughs About Religion thread the other day.

[Image: iZ7t9vo.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(08-26-2020, 04:35 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: It's interesting to read through the Gospel of Thomas whcih were found in Nag Hammadi.  Bucky posted the link so I thought I'd follow it.   http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom-meyer.html   He's similar to a Yogi giving out bits of spiritual advice.  


Quote:Yeshua saw some babies nursing. He said to his students,
These nursing babies
are like those who enter the kingdom.
They said to him,
Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?
 
Yeshua said to them,
When you make the two into one,
and when you make the inner like the outer
and the outer like the inner
and the upper like the lower,
and when you make male and female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male nor the female be female,
when you make eyes in place of an eye,
a hand in place of a hand,
a foot in place of a foot,
an image in place of an image,
then you will enter the kingdom.

It's all esoteric philosophy about heaven and life and stuff.  I like it much better than the four that ended up in the bible.  It reminds me of Kahlil Gibran's, The Prophet which of course is a recent book.  But the Gospel of Thomas reads like a wise philosopher talking to his students or in the tradition of Plato outside under a tree discussing life with others in attendance.   

I really like this bit of wisdom....

Quote:Yeshua said,
If a blind person leads a blind person,
both will fall in a hole.
   


Now THAT'S funny.  ^ ^ ^ 


Here's some fashion advice....

Quote:Yeshua said,
From morning to evening and from evening to morning,
do not worry about what you will wear.

Thumbs Up

There is no resurrection crap.   Some scholars date it around 60 CE some date it to 140 CE.   Anyway, it was interesting to read.

I actually have that book.

I find the last verses humorous because they confuse the hell out of the scholars: 

114)
Shimon Kefa said to them, "Miryam should leave us. Females are not worthy of life." 

Yeshua said, "Look, I shall guide her to make her male, so she too may become a living spirit resembling you males.
For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

What do you think Bucky? Gnostics, or something earlier?

Whose philosophy is this?
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Quote:Whose philosophy is this?


Horny monks living in the Egyptian desert?
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(09-01-2020, 03:54 AM)Free Wrote:
(08-26-2020, 04:35 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: It's interesting to read through the Gospel of Thomas whcih were found in Nag Hammadi.  Bucky posted the link so I thought I'd follow it.   http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom-meyer.html   He's similar to a Yogi giving out bits of spiritual advice.  


Quote:Yeshua saw some babies nursing. He said to his students,
These nursing babies
are like those who enter the kingdom.
They said to him,
Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?
 
Yeshua said to them,
When you make the two into one,
and when you make the inner like the outer
and the outer like the inner
and the upper like the lower,
and when you make male and female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male nor the female be female,
when you make eyes in place of an eye,
a hand in place of a hand,
a foot in place of a foot,
an image in place of an image,
then you will enter the kingdom.

It's all esoteric philosophy about heaven and life and stuff.  I like it much better than the four that ended up in the bible.  It reminds me of Kahlil Gibran's, The Prophet which of course is a recent book.  But the Gospel of Thomas reads like a wise philosopher talking to his students or in the tradition of Plato outside under a tree discussing life with others in attendance.   

I really like this bit of wisdom....

Quote:Yeshua said,
If a blind person leads a blind person,
both will fall in a hole.
   


Now THAT'S funny.  ^ ^ ^ 


Here's some fashion advice....

Quote:Yeshua said,
From morning to evening and from evening to morning,
do not worry about what you will wear.

Thumbs Up

There is no resurrection crap.   Some scholars date it around 60 CE some date it to 140 CE.   Anyway, it was interesting to read.

I actually have that book.

I find the last verses humorous because they confuse the hell out of the scholars: 

114)
Shimon Kefa said to them, "Miryam should leave us. Females are not worthy of life." 

Yeshua said, "Look, I shall guide her to make her male, so she too may become a living spirit resembling you males.
For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

What do you think Bucky? Gnostics, or something earlier?

Whose philosophy is this?

It is thought by some to not be Gnostic, but just labeled as such as it was found with other Gnostic texts.
I think some of the sayings are "Gnostic". Elaine Pagels has written on this topic, as well as Barnstone and Meyer. 
It's not a narrative Gospel ... it's a book of "sayings". There are other translations of the above that go somthing like "Lord, turn her into a man, so she can fully participate in the sacred mysteries". Makes ya wonder what they were up to. Big Grin
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(09-01-2020, 03:54 AM)Free Wrote: I actually have that book.

I find the last verses humorous because they confuse the hell out of the scholars: 

114)
Shimon Kefa said to them, "Miryam should leave us. Females are not worthy of life." 

Yeshua said, "Look, I shall guide her to make her male, so she too may become a living spirit resembling you males.
For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

What do you think Bucky? Gnostics, or something earlier?

Whose philosophy is this?

I think it's hyperbole around the standard-issue patriarchal thinking of the time. Women are hysterical, silly creatures who can't comprehend anything profound. But you can be magnanimous and train them to think enough like men that even they can become spiritually enlightened.

I don't think you can identify this as some unusual, distinctive teaching of a particular sect of that era.
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(12-05-2019, 03:09 PM)Free Wrote:
(12-05-2019, 02:26 PM)mordant Wrote: Unless Free, unlike most of us, choses to de-anonymize his user profile and substantiate his claims, then like me, his claims of accomplishments may for all we know reflect more the persona he's trying to project than any verified reality. So his referring to them to substantiate his bona fides was an invitation to this particular pissing contest. I have purposely confined references to my professional life to incidental remarks for that very reason. Even taken roughly at face value "president of an IT corporation" could be an incorporated storefront in the bad part of town that consists of himself and a part time tech taking walk-in business and the occasional on-site to fix someone's basement router configuration. We have about four of those in my town.

But maybe he feels that if we applied the correct critical textual analysis to the corpus of his posts, it would "prove" his bona fides, just like the proper oblations allegedly "prove" HJ. It doesn't quite work that way with real skeptics, though.

And yes I know he doesn't really claim "proof" unless he forgets himself. For purposes of this post "proof" would be a scholarly consensus after reading all the tea leaves of what he does and doesn't say.

Whenever @pablo comes online, I will ask him to simply put in a word that he knows who I am and what I do. He knows my name and my corporation's name. I won't say why he knows, only that he knows.

So ... you know ... wait for it.

I also strongly suspect that Mathilda and Dom should also know more about me than what the rest of you do. After all, all you need to do is Google the key words of Atheist Forums and you will see both a Wix site and a Google site on the first page that lead into this forum. I created those sites over a year ago when we first started these forums as a means of promoting this one. SEO is also something I do, and I do it well. You can find the thread created over a year ago in regards to those two sites right HERE.

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Free is cool. I can proudly vouch for him. Sorry I was so late in seeing this Free. Tongue
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Credentials mean dick. There are plenty of stupid people with credentials.
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(09-18-2020, 12:24 AM)pablo Wrote:
(12-05-2019, 03:09 PM)Free Wrote:
(12-05-2019, 02:26 PM)mordant Wrote: Unless Free, unlike most of us, choses to de-anonymize his user profile and substantiate his claims, then like me, his claims of accomplishments may for all we know reflect more the persona he's trying to project than any verified reality. So his referring to them to substantiate his bona fides was an invitation to this particular pissing contest. I have purposely confined references to my professional life to incidental remarks for that very reason. Even taken roughly at face value "president of an IT corporation" could be an incorporated storefront in the bad part of town that consists of himself and a part time tech taking walk-in business and the occasional on-site to fix someone's basement router configuration. We have about four of those in my town.

But maybe he feels that if we applied the correct critical textual analysis to the corpus of his posts, it would "prove" his bona fides, just like the proper oblations allegedly "prove" HJ. It doesn't quite work that way with real skeptics, though.

And yes I know he doesn't really claim "proof" unless he forgets himself. For purposes of this post "proof" would be a scholarly consensus after reading all the tea leaves of what he does and doesn't say.

Whenever @pablo comes online, I will ask him to simply put in a word that he knows who I am and what I do. He knows my name and my corporation's name. I won't say why he knows, only that he knows.

So ... you know ... wait for it.

I also strongly suspect that Mathilda and Dom should also know more about me than what the rest of you do. After all, all you need to do is Google the key words of Atheist Forums and you will see both a Wix site and a Google site on the first page that lead into this forum. I created those sites over a year ago when we first started these forums as a means of promoting this one. SEO is also something I do, and I do it well. You can find the thread created over a year ago in regards to those two sites right HERE.

Thumbs Up

Free is cool. I can proudly vouch for him. Sorry I was so late in seeing this Free.  Tongue

I find it odd that Pablo asks why monkeys still exist, because they are adapted to their environment around humans. Yet uses an Orang as an avatar of a species that is failing around humans.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
To drag the thread back on topic....

Jesus freaks make idiotic assertions like this:

[Image: who-was-historical-jesus-19-728.jpg?cb=1266439750]


None of this bullshit appears anywhere aside from the comic book that is the NT.  This is the "biblical" jc... not any sort of "historical" one.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(09-18-2020, 05:35 AM)Minimalist Wrote: To drag the thread back on topic....

Jesus freaks make idiotic assertions like this:

[Image: who-was-historical-jesus-19-728.jpg?cb=1266439750]


None of this bullshit appears anywhere aside from the comic book that is the NT.  This is the "biblical" jc... not any sort of "historical" one.

Completely agree. No christian theist I know of has ever given any evidence that there was "the biblical or historic Jesus" at all. The doorknocker theists stopped visiting me after a few times when I insisted on "proof-of-existence" AND gave them a list of contemporary writers who never referred to him.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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A "historical" jesus would be some guy of that name who did SOMETHING to annoy the POWER BROKERS and got himself killed in the process.  After that his followers started having dreams of him showing up.... a la Elvis.  Theologically a HJ is fucking worthless. 

The biblical jesus is the comic book character who is faster than a speeding bullet and leaps tall buildings in a single bound.  He also came back from the dead and flew up to fucking heaven!  The BJ is theologically indispensable to the assholes but no where to be found in the historical record.   And here we sit.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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(09-18-2020, 03:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: A "historical" jesus would be some guy of that name who did SOMETHING to annoy the POWER BROKERS and got himself killed in the process.  After that his followers started having dreams of him showing up.... a la Elvis.  Theologically a HJ is fucking worthless. 

The biblical jesus is the comic book character who is faster than a speeding bullet and leaps tall buildings in a single bound.  He also came back from the dead and flew up to fucking heaven!  The BJ is theologically indispensable to the assholes but no where to be found in the historical record.   And here we sit.

So you think there was a "historical Jesus" prophet among his people?
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
No.  And certainly one is not necessary.  Any more than a historical Romulus was necessary.


From Theodosius to the French Revolution the only thing the church would allow is the BJ.  Denying any of that happy horseshit could get you burned at the stake and the fucking protestants were as bad as the fucking catholicks when it came to that.

The HJ search arose in the late 19th century when it became apparent to a lot of the assholes that there were just too many holes in the story and they started looking for a fallback position to salvage some of their dignity.  Except, the HJ salvages nothing.  Xhristards certainly don't care about the man or his "teachings" ( judging by the way they act.)  They care about the magic tricks.  Without the magic tricks he's just some schlepper.

Nazareth is a great analogy.  In the NT it is a "city" (as the Greek word polis is rendered in English) complete with a synagogue.  Today, Nazareth has, at best, been downgraded to a tiny hamlet.  Which then causes other problems with the narrative but the Historical Nazareth crowd is desperate.

Similarly, the BJ gets the same treatment from Robert Price in The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man.
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(09-18-2020, 04:13 PM)Minimalist Wrote: No.  And certainly one is not necessary.  Any more than a historical Romulus was necessary.


From Theodosius to the French Revolution the only thing the church would allow is the BJ.  Denying any of that happy horseshit could get you burned at the stake and the fucking protestants were as bad as the fucking catholicks when it came to that.

The HJ search arose in the late 19th century when it became apparent to a lot of the assholes that there were just too many holes in the story and they started looking for a fallback position to salvage some of their dignity.  Except, the HJ salvages nothing.  Xhristards certainly don't care about the man or his "teachings" ( judging by the way they act.)  They care about the magic tricks.  Without the magic tricks he's just some schlepper.

Nazareth is a great analogy.  In the NT it is a "city" (as the Greek word polis is rendered in English) complete with a synagogue.  Today, Nazareth has, at best, been downgraded to a tiny hamlet.  Which then causes other problems with the narrative but the Historical Nazareth crowd is desperate.

Similarly, the BJ gets the same treatment from Robert Price in The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man.

Thank you. I suspected you could express my own thoughts on this rather more directly than I could.

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(09-18-2020, 03:46 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 03:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: A "historical" jesus would be some guy of that name who did SOMETHING to annoy the POWER BROKERS and got himself killed in the process.  After that his followers started having dreams of him showing up.... a la Elvis.  Theologically a HJ is fucking worthless. 

The biblical jesus is the comic book character who is faster than a speeding bullet and leaps tall buildings in a single bound.  He also came back from the dead and flew up to fucking heaven!  The BJ is theologically indispensable to the assholes but no where to be found in the historical record.   And here we sit.

So you think there was a "historical Jesus" prophet among his people?

There were a bunch of Jesuses, among the known wandering preachers of the day. 

In jesusneverexisted.com, see "A Surfeit of Jesuses". 

The problem with this one, is that no Galilean peasant (ever) got a trial in the presence of Roman aristocrats. 
At the time, trouble-makers were summarily executed, under the standing order, in the Pax Romana. They got no trials. 
So if this one did exist, and had done what they said, (caused a ruckus in the temple), he was a goner, just from that. 
The economic life-blood of Jerusalem was the temple (sacrifice) business. He threatened that, if the story has any truth. 
It's rather funny, that in Acts, Peter has to *tell* the Jewish authorities what they did, (as if they had never even known or heard of the story). 

The "Way" sect (whatever the impetus to get and keep it going) was a fact in Hebrew culture in the late 1st Century.  
How do we know ? The Expulsion Curses, which we have discussed before. Whatever else they were, they were STILL Jews, still worshipping with the Jews, as late as the end of the 1st Century. In his Christmas sermon (which they have a copy of) of the year 400, John Chrysostom (the bishop of Constantinople) told  his congregation to stop going to the synagogue. Whatever the real history of the whole deal actually is, we can know pretty much nothing, IMO.
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(09-18-2020, 06:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 03:46 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 03:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: A "historical" jesus would be some guy of that name who did SOMETHING to annoy the POWER BROKERS and got himself killed in the process.  After that his followers started having dreams of him showing up.... a la Elvis.  Theologically a HJ is fucking worthless. 

The biblical jesus is the comic book character who is faster than a speeding bullet and leaps tall buildings in a single bound.  He also came back from the dead and flew up to fucking heaven!  The BJ is theologically indispensable to the assholes but no where to be found in the historical record.   And here we sit.

So you think there was a "historical Jesus" prophet among his people?

There were a bunch of Jesuses, among the known wandering preachers of the day. 

In jesusneverexisted.com, see "A Surfeit of Jesuses". 

The problem with this one, is that no Galilean peasant (ever) got a trial in the presence of Roman aristocrats. 
At the time, trouble-makers were summarily executed, under the standing order, in the Pax Romana. They got no trials. 
So if this one did exist, and had done what they said, (caused a ruckus in the temple), he was a goner, just from that. 
The economic life-blood of Jerusalem was the temple (sacrifice) business. He threatened that, if the story has any truth. 
It's rather funny, that in Acts, Peter has to *tell* the Jewish authorities what they did, (as if they had never even known or heard of the story). 

The "Way" sect (whatever the impetus to get and keep it going) was a fact in Hebrew culture in the late 1st Century.  
How do we know ? The Expulsion Curses, which we have discussed before. Whatever else they were, they were STILL Jews, still worshipping with the Jews, as late as the end of the 1st Century. In his Christmas sermon (which they have a copy of) of the year 400, John Chrysostom (the bishop of Constantinople) told  his congregation to stop going to the synagogue. Whatever the real history of the whole deal actually is, we can know pretty much nothing, IMO.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(09-18-2020, 06:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 03:46 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 03:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: A "historical" jesus would be some guy of that name who did SOMETHING to annoy the POWER BROKERS and got himself killed in the process.  After that his followers started having dreams of him showing up.... a la Elvis.  Theologically a HJ is fucking worthless. 

The biblical jesus is the comic book character who is faster than a speeding bullet and leaps tall buildings in a single bound.  He also came back from the dead and flew up to fucking heaven!  The BJ is theologically indispensable to the assholes but no where to be found in the historical record.   And here we sit.

So you think there was a "historical Jesus" prophet among his people?

There were a bunch of Jesuses, among the known wandering preachers of the day. 

In jesusneverexisted.com, see "A Surfeit of Jesuses". 

The problem with this one, is that no Galilean peasant (ever) got a trial in the presence of Roman aristocrats. 
At the time, trouble-makers were summarily executed, under the standing order, in the Pax Romana. They got no trials. 
So if this one did exist, and had done what they said, (caused a ruckus in the temple), he was a goner, just from that. 
The economic life-blood of Jerusalem was the temple (sacrifice) business. He threatened that, if the story has any truth. 
It's rather funny, that in Acts, Peter has to *tell* the Jewish authorities what they did, (as if they had never even known or heard of the story). 

The "Way" sect (whatever the impetus to get and keep it going) was a fact in Hebrew culture in the late 1st Century.  
How do we know ? The Expulsion Curses, which we have discussed before. Whatever else they were, they were STILL Jews, still worshipping with the Jews, as late as the end of the 1st Century. In his Christmas sermon (which they have a copy of) of the year 400, John Chrysostom (the bishop of Constantinople) told  his congregation to stop going to the synagogue. Whatever the real history of the whole deal actually is, we can know pretty much nothing, IMO.

Given the logical requirements for a Messiah, there could be "none" or "one". But not two or more. And "one" would be a superstition anyway.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Most of the various "jesuses" that Josephus recorded were revolutionaries or other troublemakers.  Josephus had a rather dim opinion of them.   I always found it most compelling that early xhristards were so upset that their boy made no obvious mark on history that they had to try to shoehorn him in Josephus 4 centuries later.

It had been dismissed as a forgery until the HJ "movement" started when they decided.... much like the early xhristards.... that they just had to have a reference to their fucking jesus in the record and so set about to rehabilitate the TF.
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(09-18-2020, 07:37 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Most of the various "jesuses" that Josephus recorded were revolutionaries or other troublemakers.  Josephus had a rather dim opinion of them.   I always found it most compelling that early xhristards were so upset that their boy made no obvious mark on history that they had to try to shoehorn him in Josephus 4 centuries later.

It had been dismissed as a forgery until the HJ "movement" started when they decided.... much like the early xhristards.... that they just had to have a reference to their fucking jesus in the record and so set about to rehabilitate the TF.

I once challenged the door-knockers to provide a list of contemporary writers who mention "Jesus" . They tried, but it was all their bible or people a century or 2 later refferring to it.
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Well, Josephus would have been born somewhere between 1-7 years after the godboy was allegedly killed so not a contemporary in any case.  The fact that they can never quite decide when such an important event happened seems to me to be another nail in the coffin of historicity but never mind that for now.

So Josephus, born around 37 would have been in his 30's when he was appointed to command the armies of the rebels in Galilee - a position in which he was hopelessly outclassed by Vespasian and wasn't helped when the good citizens of Tiberias and Sepphoris told him to take his army and go fuck himself!  After being defeated in the siege of Jotapata he decided that he wanted to be on the Romans' side after all and defected.   When the war was over and he was safely installed in Rome under the patronage of Vespasian he set about writing his various books.  Sometime then between 75-93 so a good long time after all this bible bullshit was supposed to have taken place. 

Xhristards insist that the TF is true in all its glory.  More reasonable types admit that it was heavily edited by later jesus freaks but stubbornly insist that it was there in some form because........    because.......   because without it they are up shit's creek sans paddle.

The TF is very important for one reason.  It's inclusion even as an interpolation in Antiquities of the Jews ensured that xtians would wet their loin cloths over Josephus and made sure that his works survived in their monasteries and such for us to read.

Another writer, Justus of Tiberius, a contemporary and opponent of Josephus, also wrote a history.  It was read by one Photius a patriarch of Constantinople in the 9th century who wrote:

https://life.liegeman.org/whats-it-all-a...extern-qa/

Quote:“I have read the chronology of Justus of Tiberias, whose title is this, [The Chronology of] the Kings of Judah which succeeded one another. This [Justus] came out of the city of Tiberias in Galilee. He begins his history from Moses, and ends it not till the death of Agrippa, the seventh [ruler] of the family of Herod, and the last king of the Jews; who took the government under Claudius, had it augmented under Nero, and still more augmented by Vespasian. He died in the third year of Trajan, where also his history ends. He is very concise in his language, and slightly passes over those affairs that were most necessary to be insisted on; and being under the Jewish prejudices, as indeed he was himself also a Jew by birth, he makes not the least mention of the appearance of Christ, or what things happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did.


And that is the last we hear of Justus.  Obviously, if there was no propaganda value the jesus freaks weren't interested in preserving it.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(09-18-2020, 09:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Well, Josephus would have been born somewhere between 1-7 years after the godboy was allegedly killed so not a contemporary in any case.  The fact that they can never quite decide when such an important event happened seems to me to be another nail in the coffin of historicity but never mind that for now.

So Josephus, born around 37 would have been in his 30's when he was appointed to command the armies of the rebels in Galilee - a position in which he was hopelessly outclassed by Vespasian and wasn't helped when the good citizens of Tiberias and Sepphoris told him to take his army and go fuck himself!  After being defeated in the siege of Jotapata he decided that he wanted to be on the Romans' side after all and defected.   When the war was over and he was safely installed in Rome under the patronage of Vespasian he set about writing his various books.  Sometime then between 75-93 so a good long time after all this bible bullshit was supposed to have taken place. 

Xhristards insist that the TF is true in all its glory.  More reasonable types admit that it was heavily edited by later jesus freaks but stubbornly insist that it was there in some form because........    because.......   because without it they are up shit's creek sans paddle.

The TF is very important for one reason.  It's inclusion even as an interpolation in Antiquities of the Jews ensured that xtians would wet their loin cloths over Josephus and made sure that his works survived in their monasteries and such for us to read.

Another writer, Justus of Tiberius, a contemporary and opponent of Josephus, also wrote a history.  It was read by one Photius a patriarch of Constantinople in the 9th century who wrote:

https://life.liegeman.org/whats-it-all-a...extern-qa/

Quote:“I have read the chronology of Justus of Tiberias, whose title is this, [The Chronology of] the Kings of Judah which succeeded one another. This [Justus] came out of the city of Tiberias in Galilee. He begins his history from Moses, and ends it not till the death of Agrippa, the seventh [ruler] of the family of Herod, and the last king of the Jews; who took the government under Claudius, had it augmented under Nero, and still more augmented by Vespasian. He died in the third year of Trajan, where also his history ends. He is very concise in his language, and slightly passes over those affairs that were most necessary to be insisted on; and being under the Jewish prejudices, as indeed he was himself also a Jew by birth, he makes not the least mention of the appearance of Christ, or what things happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did.


And that is the last we hear of Justus.  Obviously, if there was no propaganda value the jesus freaks weren't interested in preserving it.

Happy 3 likes if I could. Josephus was a false-writer andfictinalized his like. He speaks truth like fishermen describe their catches, as in...

"They go forth early in the morning, returning of strong drink and the truth is not in them". Well probably shouldn't use quotes... It's a recollection of a quote.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
So, C/B tell me if you recognize this from Josephus' "Life"

Sound familiar at all?

Quote:2. Now my father Matthias was not only eminent on account of his nobility, but had an higher commendation on account of his righteousness; and was in great reputation in Jerusalem, the greatest city we have. I was my self brought up with my brother, whose name was Matthias: for he was my own brother, by both father and mother; and I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning; and appeared to have both a great memory, and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the High Priests, and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.

Big Grin
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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(09-18-2020, 10:51 PM)Minimalist Wrote: So, C/B tell me if you recognize this from Josephus' "Life"

Sound familiar at all?

Quote:2. Now my father Matthias was not only eminent on account of his nobility, but had an higher commendation on account of his righteousness; and was in great reputation in Jerusalem, the greatest city we have. I was my self brought up with my brother, whose name was Matthias: for he was my own brother, by both father and mother; and I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning; and appeared to have both a great memory, and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the High Priests, and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.

Big Grin

Haven't the slightest idea. Sounds like a personal autobiography of someone trying to credential his life though.

My understanding of Josephus is that he made up stuff, lied outright, and sucked up to powerful rulers.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
And gospel bullshitters copied from him!

Quote:41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 

Luke 2

Of course, they had to have jc go josephus one better so they made him 12 instead of 14!
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