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Defending Atheism as rational.
#51

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 12:25 AM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 12:23 AM)unfogged Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 12:08 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: This is asking how I know my path and religion is true, which is off-topic.

Actually, that is very much on topic.  It is the core question that atheists have been asking for centuries without getting an answer.  That's why atheism is rational.

It maybe linked to the title and can have a topic with similar title, but not the actual content of the OP.

Your OP was a wall of text that most might thing tl;dr. And if you're trying to sell atheism to a bunch of atheists, isn't that just redundant anyway?
      Christianity: 
God meddles in the affairs of humans in a small part the Earth for 1500 years, giving one tribal society rules to live by.
He stops all direct contact for the next 2,000 years, leaving us with a metaphorical set of instructions.
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#52

Defending Atheism as rational.
True, there is battle going on with me. I have one last doubt, that I'm fighting inside with debates, and that's the possibility of Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) being a control mechanism by Illuminati so that people awakened to the sorcery on Quran funnel the effort of resistance in hope of the return of a guiding king and leader, only that there is no such thing. I don't know if the person who I think is the Mahdi that I saw in real life is actually him either, I pretty much ran scared from him, so he let me be. Afterwards, I been questioning whether he is from the dark forces or legit it was him even though he didn't claim it, he left some words I knew that it was implicit.

I have so far 3 arguments against that notion from Quran, and by God, it's me trying to escape my knowledge that I entertain such doubt, but I have to face them and destroy them before they get huge for no rational reason.
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#53

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 02:42 AM)Joods Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 12:25 AM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 12:23 AM)unfogged Wrote: Actually, that is very much on topic.  It is the core question that atheists have been asking for centuries without getting an answer.  That's why atheism is rational.

It maybe linked to the title and can have a topic with similar title, but not the actual content of the OP.

Your OP was a wall of text that most might thing tl;dr. And if you're trying to sell atheism to a bunch of atheists, isn't that just redundant anyway?

It's to show why I Think Atheism is rational from the point view that I believe Theism is correct still.
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#54

Defending Atheism as rational.
Poor god. Always trying stuff, always suffering those unintended consequences, then receding in embarrassment. Curses, foiled again! It’s a story the religious people I know tend to associate more with satan, but if you want to hook your god into that tradition, go right ahead.
god, ugh
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#55

Defending Atheism as rational.
That totally makes zero sense.
      Christianity: 
God meddles in the affairs of humans in a small part the Earth for 1500 years, giving one tribal society rules to live by.
He stops all direct contact for the next 2,000 years, leaving us with a metaphorical set of instructions.
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#56

Defending Atheism as rational.
Ninjad! That post was for MK.
      Christianity: 
God meddles in the affairs of humans in a small part the Earth for 1500 years, giving one tribal society rules to live by.
He stops all direct contact for the next 2,000 years, leaving us with a metaphorical set of instructions.
Reply
#57

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 02:50 AM)Joods Wrote: Ninjad! That post was for MK.

What doesn't make sense about it?
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#58

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 02:51 AM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 02:50 AM)Joods Wrote: Ninjad! That post was for MK.

What doesn't make sense about it?

Read it real slow, out loud and tell me again what it says.
      Christianity: 
God meddles in the affairs of humans in a small part the Earth for 1500 years, giving one tribal society rules to live by.
He stops all direct contact for the next 2,000 years, leaving us with a metaphorical set of instructions.
Reply
#59

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 02:47 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: True, there is battle going on with me. I have one last doubt, that I'm fighting inside with debates, and that's the possibility of Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) being a control mechanism by Illuminati so that people awakened to the sorcery on Quran funnel the effort of resistance in hope of the return of a guiding king and leader, only that there is no such thing.  I don't know if the person who I think is the Mahdi that I saw in real life is actually him either, I pretty much ran scared from him, so he let me be. Afterwards, I been questioning whether he is from the dark forces or legit it was him even though he didn't claim it, he left some words I knew that it was implicit.

Huh
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#60

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 03:11 AM)Joods Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 02:51 AM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 02:50 AM)Joods Wrote: Ninjad! That post was for MK.

What doesn't make sense about it?

Read it real slow, out loud ..


Oh hell no.  Never!
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#61

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 04:26 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 02:47 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: True, there is battle going on with me. I have one last doubt, that I'm fighting inside with debates, and that's the possibility of Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) being a control mechanism by Illuminati so that people awakened to the sorcery on Quran funnel the effort of resistance in hope of the return of a guiding king and leader, only that there is no such thing.  I don't know if the person who I think is the Mahdi that I saw in real life is actually him either, I pretty much ran scared from him, so he let me be. Afterwards, I been questioning whether he is from the dark forces or legit it was him even though he didn't claim it, he left some words I knew that it was implicit.

Huh

Bro, world is getting stranger for me the more I know. Like you guys think I'm weird, you have no idea how strange things are getting for me. Wallah - sometimes truth is more stranger then fiction.
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#62

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 04:28 AM)Mark Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 03:11 AM)Joods Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 02:51 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: What doesn't make sense about it?

Read it real slow, out loud ..


Oh hell no.  Never!

You made me laugh so bad!
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#63

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 04:34 AM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 04:28 AM)Mark Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 03:11 AM)Joods Wrote: Read it real slow, out loud ..


Oh hell no.  Never!

You made me laugh so bad!


That is why I'm here.  Let God fight his own fights.
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#64

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-26-2018, 09:03 PM)airportkid Wrote: How could you or anyone know you're witnessing either a miracle or the reappearance of a messiah? 

There is indeed this problem as well:

Matt Dilahunty Wrote:The "What would change your mind" question came up again in e-mail. I've provided an answer many times, but the following version might be worth thinking about:

"I don't know what would change my mind, and I don't need to know. In fact, it would be arrogant for me to presume that I could even come up with an answer, because that presumes that I'm sufficiently knowledgeable that I can tell the difference between 'a vastly superior technology that is beyond my understanding' and 'the powers of a god'.
But, if there is a god, that god should know exactly what it would take to change my mind...and that god should be capable of doing whatever it would take.
The fact that this hasn't happened can only mean one of two things:
1. No such god exists.
2. Whatever god exists doesn't care to convince me, at this time.
In either case, it's not my problem and there's nothing I can do about it. Meanwhile, all of those believers who think that there is a god who does want me to know that he exists - are clearly, obviously, undeniably... wrong."

My bold added.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#65

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 04:30 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: Bro, world is getting stranger for me the more I know. Like you guys think I'm weird, you have no idea how strange things are getting for me.
Wallah
- sometimes truth is more stranger then fiction.

I notice that you've used this word "wallah" numerous times across the forums.  I can only guess that English is your second
language, and that you intend to use the word voilà which is French for "look there".  It's pronounced  /vwa.la/.

At any rate, an example of it's correct usage would be:   "He simply mixed eggs and milk, and threw them in a pan, and voila!  Scrambled eggs in 90 seconds."

—You're   welcome.       Rolleyes
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#66

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-26-2018, 11:46 PM)Joods Wrote:
(11-26-2018, 10:22 PM)Mathilda Wrote:
(11-26-2018, 07:33 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: You can look it more as a justification of why Theists shouldn't see Atheists as irrational or insincere to the truth.

Well it's a nice change to see a theist not try to argue that atheism is irrational. My brother wrote an essay arguing that and then wanted me to give feed back on it. What he didn't tell me was that he was going to publish it as a booklet and try selling it on Amazon.

I hope you gave him this  Dodgy face.

Oh yes I was quite angry. I told him that this was the first time that I had seen him be overtly manipulative. As far as I was concerned, he was trying to get me to help him convince atheists that they were wrong. He deliberately gave the impression that it was an essay meant for a discussion forum so I did the bare minimum for people to actually bother reading it so they could then tear it apart. If I knew what he had intended it for I wouldn't have even done that. I mean he talked about atheism like it was a religion and didn't know that the majority of atheists are agnostic atheists.

He told me that it was meant to be provocative and to encourage debate, but what's the point of that if it's a booklet that he gives out to someone that he never sees again?
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#67

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 12:06 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: God gave people free-will so that the reward to his obedience would be more meaningful and immense.

Will free from what?
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#68

Defending Atheism as rational.
I think he's talking about the magical Libertarian kind. Just my guess xD
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#69

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 12:12 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: ... But when you know by miracles this person is God's trustee, it's easier to digest information, because you are less critical.  Being critical is good and has it's usefulness, but it also often prevents people from seeing right things and being overly opposed to things and resorting to questions instead of perceiving the truth of what a person says ...

When people say things like this with a straight face it removes the mystery of how Trumps and Hitlers and Putins attract their followers.  But the mystery remains how any even marginally functional human intellect could say something like this without the slightest recognition of its repercussions.  The only answer seems to be that whatever intellect is present isn't even marginally functional.
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#70

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 02:30 PM)Mathilda Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 12:06 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: God gave people free-will so that the reward to his obedience would be more meaningful and immense.

Will free from what?

It's a construct and a balance we must balance of all God's qualities which in Him is a perfect unity with no divisions. We are like a circle that is finite, but has a one to one relationship with the absolute, in that he has mapped all his infinite qualities into our finite circle. While he is absolutely one and non-divided, we are infinitely complex, and can unbalance all traits.  The traits all have an opposite potential from our shadow, rebellion side, that comes with free-will. Irrationality is from the opposite of all the light qualities of God's image he mapped his qualities in from his unity.

That is the true us, and The Torah and Bible prove God with that argument, if you would but perceive.
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#71

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 03:16 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 02:30 PM)Mathilda Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 12:06 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: God gave people free-will so that the reward to his obedience would be more meaningful and immense.

Will free from what?

It's a construct and a balance we must balance of all God's qualities which in Him is a perfect unity with no divisions. We are like a circle that is finite, but has a one to one relationship with the absolute, in that he has mapped all his infinite qualities into our finite circle. While he absolute one and non-divided, we are infinitely complex, and can unbalance all traits.  The traits all have an opposite potential from our shadow, rebellion side, that comes with free-will. Irrationality is from the opposite of all the light qualities of God's image he mapped his qualities in from his unity.

That is the true us, and The Torah and Bible prove God with that argument, if you would but perceive.

That didn't answer my question.

If I stuck a gun to your head and said give me all your money, would you be exercising free will in doing so?

Or would you later complain that you were being coerced into giving me all your money?

Whereas if you decided one day to give me all your money and I had never demanded it, then you could say that you were exercising free will. But then why would you do such a thing?

I eat when I am hungry. Not because of free will but because I want to minimise my discomfort. So I am not eating due to free will (even though I sometimes eat because I have the munchies)
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#72

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 03:16 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: It's a construct and a balance we must balance of all God's qualities which in Him is a perfect unity with no divisions. We are like a circle that is finite, but has a one to one relationship with the absolute, in that he has mapped all his infinite qualities into our finite circle. While he is absolutely one and non-divided, we are infinitely complex, and can unbalance all traits.  The traits all have an opposite potential from our shadow, rebellion side, that comes with free-will. Irrationality is from the opposite of all the light qualities of God's image he mapped his qualities in from his unity.

That is the true us, and The Torah and Bible prove God with that argument, if you would but perceive.

Uh... you still have not provided any viable evidence that this entity you call God even exists, other than in
your imagination.  Please do so in order to give your argument some (possible) veracity.

Or are you maybe unable to?  Oh dear.     Dodgy
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#73

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 02:24 PM)SYZ Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 04:30 AM)MysticKnight Wrote: Bro, world is getting stranger for me the more I know. Like you guys think I'm weird, you have no idea how strange things are getting for me.
Wallah
- sometimes truth is more stranger then fiction.

I notice that you've used this word "wallah" numerous times across the forums.  I can only guess that English is your second
language, and that you intend to use the word voilà which is French for "look there".  It's pronounced  /vwa.la/.

At any rate, an example of it's correct usage would be:   "He simply mixed eggs and milk, and threw them in a pan, and voila!  Scrambled eggs in 90 seconds."

—You're   welcome.       Rolleyes

Wallah is an Arabic word that is usually meant as "I swear to God (Allah)" but can mean other things depending on context.
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#74

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 03:26 PM)Mathilda Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 03:16 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 02:30 PM)Mathilda Wrote: Will free from what?

It's a construct and a balance we must balance of all God's qualities which in Him is a perfect unity with no divisions. We are like a circle that is finite, but has a one to one relationship with the absolute, in that he has mapped all his infinite qualities into our finite circle. While he absolute one and non-divided, we are infinitely complex, and can unbalance all traits.  The traits all have an opposite potential from our shadow, rebellion side, that comes with free-will. Irrationality is from the opposite of all the light qualities of God's image he mapped his qualities in from his unity.

That is the true us, and The Torah and Bible prove God with that argument, if you would but perceive.

That didn't answer my question.

If I stuck a gun to your head and said give me all your money, would you be exercising free will in doing so?

Or would you later complain that you were being coerced into giving me all your money?

Whereas if you decided one day to give me all your money and I had never demanded it, then you could say that you were exercising free will. But then why would you do such a thing?

I eat when I am hungry. Not because of free will but because I want to minimise my discomfort. So I am not eating due to free will (even though I sometimes eat because I have the munchies)

I will try explain with same words but adding to it:

It's a construct and a balance we must balance of all God's qualities which in Him is a perfect unity with no divisions. We are like a circle that is finite, but has a one to one relationship with the absolute, in that he has mapped all his infinite qualities into our finite circle. While he is absolutely one and non-divided, we are infinitely complex, and can unbalance all traits. The traits all have an opposite potential from our shadow, rebellion side, that comes with free-will. Irrationality is from the opposite of all the light qualities of God's image he mapped his qualities in from his unity.

That is the true nature of all of us, and The Torah and Bible prove God with that argument, if you would but perceive.
All of us are mapped with some strengths of qualities of God more then others, and some weakness, except for the chosen guides and kings who have them in a perfect balance, although they didn't always start off that way, they attained perfect balance when they took on the cosmic station of the seat of God on the universe and true Authority on humanity.



In that lies the answer if you would ponder and reflect, strength is to hold on to the balance and perfect the armies of intelligence, and weakness or rebellion depending on which we take, destroys the armies of intelligence and goes to the irrational side of the shadow.

Intelligence is not the same to the degree of cunning.  Cunning when used deceptively and insincerely, leads to confusion, as it did with Iblis.

Wisdom type intelligence even when used naively, will lead to the straight path even if we swerve, as it did Adam after his severe slip.
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#75

Defending Atheism as rational.
(11-27-2018, 03:32 PM)SYZ Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 03:16 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: It's a construct and a balance we must balance of all God's qualities which in Him is a perfect unity with no divisions. We are like a circle that is finite, but has a one to one relationship with the absolute, in that he has mapped all his infinite qualities into our finite circle. While he is absolutely one and non-divided, we are infinitely complex, and can unbalance all traits.  The traits all have an opposite potential from our shadow, rebellion side, that comes with free-will. Irrationality is from the opposite of all the light qualities of God's image he mapped his qualities in from his unity.

That is the true us, and The Torah and Bible prove God with that argument, if you would but perceive.

Uh... you still have not provided any viable evidence that this entity you call God even exists, other than in
your imagination.  Please do so in order to give your argument some (possible) veracity.

Or are you maybe unable to?  Oh dear.     Dodgy

The one to one mapping is a proof among many proofs if you would but perceive.
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