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This is what religion does to people
#26

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 05:52 PM)evenheathen Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 05:35 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: All misguidance or misguided interpretations of religion or holy books, lead to more misguidance.

Even the best guidance from God will lead to misguidance if we embrace irrationality, desires, and given into the forces of Iblis.  If we are even hasty with interpretations be we sincere or not, we will be misguided.

What Atheists don't understand, is they are not better off with relying on humans then relying on God.  

And they would be right though, if all religions are man made - they are all misguidance. Which proves humans can't form the truth, and Atheists can't guide to the truth of who we are either.

What's more likely is that there is no guidance. We all dance on this stage until we are claimed by the abyss. 

Given the nature of the universe that we can observe, this explanation is the most logical.

Some people have just been convinced otherwise.

You aren't the standard of what is most rational or logical nor the standard on how to observe the universe. You and all Atheists grouping up here, are not either.
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#27

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 05:53 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Religion can be a positive or negative influence to a person, depending on many factors - just like any ideology. To say it always only ruins people to the extreme, like the OP did in the thread title, is simply incorrect and not factual. It isnt objective. Furthermore, it puts people of faith into a box that raises negative feelings and prejudices against those people. So that when you encounter a person who is not an atheist, you automatically assume they are damaged, a nut job, or that they would do horrible things like the guy in the video did. That is bigotry.

The point of the video is that religion is what people make it out to be.  This guy is mentally ill so comes out with the worse use of it due to his irrationality that is not totally his fault.

Similarly, less irrational people still use in diverse ways that are not rational. The op is right. Religion is not meant to be interpreted and used by humans, if it's from God it's meant to be recognize, and guidance through reflection seen, and truth submitted if and only if there are proofs and insights in form of clear undoubtable clarifications.

Religion is evil all in all, which is one reason almost paradoxically we need religion from God to correct our misguidance.

We can't rely on unclearness or conjecture, religion or no religion,  and mentally ill people are just an extreme version of conjecture based interpretations when they say they are Jesus or something and truly sincerely believe it.
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#28

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 05:49 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: I have the proof, but till you understand, Atheists aren't guides to the truth nor representatives of reason, then we can talk, because you certainly don't have proof that you guys even care about the truth of this question or if you are set to deny any proofs coming your way.

At least we have to be equals in this regard.  If it's possible all Theists are misguided and all man made religions are misguided, it's possible Atheists are just as misguided if not worse.

This is reasonable to admit.  Admit that, because, we can't move forward if you take your denial of proofs as proof there is no proofs, like as if you are the standard of what is proofs for God or not.

I asked for demonstrable evidence, not "proofs", and until you understand the difference you will likely not make much headway with many atheists; certainly not with me. I find little to nothing in your claims to be reasonable and your "proofs" to be fallacious. If you have evidence for a god please present it. Having read much of your stuff on the AF site I can say with some confidence that you have nothing of substance to offer.
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#29

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 05:58 PM)unfogged Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 05:49 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: I have the proof, but till you understand, Atheists aren't guides to the truth nor representatives of reason, then we can talk, because you certainly don't have proof that you guys even care about the truth of this question or if you are set to deny any proofs coming your way.

At least we have to be equals in this regard.  If it's possible all Theists are misguided and all man made religions are misguided, it's possible Atheists are just as misguided if not worse.

This is reasonable to admit.  Admit that, because, we can't move forward if you take your denial of proofs as proof there is no proofs, like as if you are the standard of what is proofs for God or not.

I asked for demonstrable evidence, not "proofs", and until you understand the difference you will likely not make much headway with many atheists; certainly not with me.  I find little to nothing in your claims to be reasonable and your "proofs" to be fallacious.  If you have evidence for a god please present it.  Having read much of your stuff on the AF site I can say with some confidence that you have nothing of substance to offer.

I am not going to argue semantics, I have clear insights I can convey the prove God beyond doubt. Whether you accept such words and accept the truth that are conveyed through them, doesn't do away with the truth.

Again, until you admit you aren't the standard nor determination of what reason is, nor the dictionary we all have to agree to semantics use of, because I don't accept Atheists claim they don't worship a God but believe you do worship a god in form of your lower desires and self, in the way all religions defined worship and gods and idols, you certainly are not free from that, but whatever, dude.... semantic war is not what I'm interested in.

The fact you are, just shows how irrational you are and don't even understand the purpose of language in the first place and how it really works.
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#30

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 06:01 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: I am not going to argue semantics, I have clear insights I can convey the prove God beyond doubt. Whether you accept such words and accept the truth that are conveyed through them, doesn't do away with the truth.

So you have no actual evidence. Check.

Quote:Again, until you admit you aren't the standard nor determination of what reason is, nor the dictionary we all have to agree to semantics use of, because I don't accept Atheists claim they don't worship a God but believe you do worship a god in form of your lower desires and self, in the way all religions defined worship and gods and idols, you certainly are not free from that, but whatever, dude.... semantic war is not what I'm interested in.

I always get a good laugh from the "I know you are but what am I" defense.

Attempts to insult me and claims to know what I think are beside the point. Like every other person in the world, I set the standard for what I consider reasonable to believe and that standard for me requires demonstrable evidence. It is not a high bar for anything that actually does exist.

Quote:The fact you are, just shows how irrational you are and don't even understand the purpose of language in the first place and how it really works.

All you have is semantics. I'm just asking for evidence for your god. If you have any please present it. Your "insights" are meaningless unless you can find some way to demonstrate their validity in reality. If your claims can't be shown to be real then they can be dismissed out of hand.
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#31

This is what religion does to people
You set the standard for yourself, I believe you set a misguiding standard, that is even if something is proven to you, you hold on to irrational whispers and doubts despite clear insights that remind of God's existence beyond what should be doubted.
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#32

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 05:53 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Furthermore, it puts people of faith into a box that raises negative feelings and prejudices against those people. So that when you encounter a person who is not an atheist, you automatically assume they are damaged, a nut job, or that they would do horrible things like the guy in the video did. That is bigotry.
Except that I don't paint with such a broad brush, but thanks for implying that I do. My entire family is very religious, and for the most part some of the best and most rational people I know (except for the religious part). 

I know it seems like atheists do that, but that's because anonymous discussions on the internet never quite comport to what actual conversations are like in the really real world. Everything is put into a rather black and white context, which can be quite useful for some points, but not necessarily helpful for others. 
(11-25-2018, 05:53 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: You aren't the standard of what is most rational or logical nor the standard on how to observe the universe. You and all Atheists grouping up here, are not either.
Duly noted, friend.  Thumbs Up 

I'm sure you are just a shining beacon of rationality and logic.  Winking
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#33

This is what religion does to people
The solution I propose is that in dialogue, we come equally as potentially irrational. No one acts like they are standard of reason and rationality. Or we won't get anywhere in dialogue.
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#34

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:45 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: The solution I propose is that in dialogue, we come equally as potentially irrational. No one acts like they are standard of reason and rationality. Or we won't get anywhere in dialogue.

Your "solution" is shit as you're not merely potentially irrational but clearly irrational and just rambling about god nonsense you have no evidence of existing.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#35

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:45 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: The solution I propose is that in dialogue, we come equally as potentially irrational. No one acts like they are standard of reason and rationality. Or we won't get anywhere in dialogue.

I can assure you that I would never claim to be a standard of rationality.  hobo

I've just gotten better at spotting bullshit when I see it.
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#36

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:50 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:45 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: The solution I propose is that in dialogue, we come equally as potentially irrational. No one acts like they are standard of reason and rationality. Or we won't get anywhere in dialogue.

Your "solution" is shit as you're not merely potentially irrational but clearly irrational and just rambling about god nonsense you have no evidence of existing.

You sound arrogant and foolish, if all you do is assert things with no backing up.  If there is a burden for me to provide insights and proofs for my path, then there is a burden for those seeking those proofs and demanding them, to listen. And it's not good enough to reject those even if they are wrong, by, mere "They don't prove" etc, you have to show why, and where the error is.

If I write a long piece with support for all the premises that make a valid syllogism people get bored and can't even form the syllogism out of it. And if I summarize people ask where is the proof for each premise. It's tiring Wallah, but I believe God is worth proving, because he is who humans are created to value and recognize and know above all, and to know each other in truth through his beautiful names and witness and guides who guide by the truth and his command.
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#37

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:51 PM)evenheathen Wrote: I've just gotten better at spotting bullshit when I see it.

There is no reason for me to believe this.  It's your wish to be true, but you haven't show you can distinguish falsehood and truth well.
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#38

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:53 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:50 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:45 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: The solution I propose is that in dialogue, we come equally as potentially irrational. No one acts like they are standard of reason and rationality. Or we won't get anywhere in dialogue.

Your "solution" is shit as you're not merely potentially irrational but clearly irrational and just rambling about god nonsense you have no evidence of existing.

You sound arrogant and foolish, if all you do is assert things with no backing up.  If there is a burden for me to provide insights and proofs for my path, then there is a burden for those seeking those proofs and demanding them, to listen. And it's not good enough to reject those even if they are wrong, by, mere "They don't prove" etc, you have to show why, and where the error is.

If I write a long piece with support for all the premises that make a valid syllogism people get bored and can't even form the syllogism out of it. And if I summarize people ask where is the proof for each premise. It's tiring Wallah, but I believe God is worth proving, because he is who humans are created to value and recognize and know above all, and to know each other in truth through his beautiful names and witness and guides who guide by the truth and his command.

I had enough of your idiocy on AF so now I simply say that you can go fuck yourself with your religious nuttery you indoctrinated clown.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#39

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:59 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:53 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:50 PM)Szuchow Wrote: Your "solution" is shit as you're not merely potentially irrational but clearly irrational and just rambling about god nonsense you have no evidence of existing.

You sound arrogant and foolish, if all you do is assert things with no backing up.  If there is a burden for me to provide insights and proofs for my path, then there is a burden for those seeking those proofs and demanding them, to listen. And it's not good enough to reject those even if they are wrong, by, mere "They don't prove" etc, you have to show why, and where the error is.

If I write a long piece with support for all the premises that make a valid syllogism people get bored and can't even form the syllogism out of it. And if I summarize people ask where is the proof for each premise. It's tiring Wallah, but I believe God is worth proving, because he is who humans are created to value and recognize and know above all, and to know each other in truth through his beautiful names and witness and guides who guide by the truth and his command.

I had enough of your idiocy on AF so now I simply say that you can go fuck yourself with your religious nuttery you indoctrinated clown.


You confirm what I believe, that you don't want to know God exists, so irrationally deny proofs when reminded.  Some people can dialogue, why do you feel the need to open your mouth then?

You don't sound rational, you sound emotionally invested in Atheism and angry at me for attempting to prove God and the religion I believe is true. Either claim we should present proofs or claim we shouldn't and it should be left to faith or for humans to find out on their own,  but it's paradox, wallah, the way you guys present, damned if you and damned if you don't type of thing.
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#40

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 08:03 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:59 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:53 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: You sound arrogant and foolish, if all you do is assert things with no backing up.  If there is a burden for me to provide insights and proofs for my path, then there is a burden for those seeking those proofs and demanding them, to listen. And it's not good enough to reject those even if they are wrong, by, mere "They don't prove" etc, you have to show why, and where the error is.

If I write a long piece with support for all the premises that make a valid syllogism people get bored and can't even form the syllogism out of it. And if I summarize people ask where is the proof for each premise. It's tiring Wallah, but I believe God is worth proving, because he is who humans are created to value and recognize and know above all, and to know each other in truth through his beautiful names and witness and guides who guide by the truth and his command.

I had enough of your idiocy on AF so now I simply say that you can go fuck yourself with your religious nuttery you indoctrinated clown.


You confirm what I believe, that you don't want to know God exists, so irrationally deny proofs when reminded.  Some people can dialogue, why do you feel the need to open your mouth then?

You don't sound rational, you sound emotionally invested in Atheism and angry at me for attempting to prove God and the religion I believe is true. Either claim we should present proofs or claim we shouldn't and it should be left to faith or for humans to find out on their own,  but it's paradox, wallah, the way you guys present, damned if you and damned if you don't type of thing.

Pat yourself on the  head some more clown, it's kinda amusing to see those hobbled with chains of faith taking everything as confirmation of their innane beliefs.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#41

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 08:06 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 08:03 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:59 PM)Szuchow Wrote: I had enough of your idiocy on AF so now I simply say that you can go fuck yourself with your religious nuttery you indoctrinated clown.


You confirm what I believe, that you don't want to know God exists, so irrationally deny proofs when reminded.  Some people can dialogue, why do you feel the need to open your mouth then?

You don't sound rational, you sound emotionally invested in Atheism and angry at me for attempting to prove God and the religion I believe is true. Either claim we should present proofs or claim we shouldn't and it should be left to faith or for humans to find out on their own,  but it's paradox, wallah, the way you guys present, damned if you and damned if you don't type of thing.

Pat yourself on the  head some more clown, it's kinda amusing to see those hobbled with chains of faith taking everything as confirmation of their innane beliefs.

Denial of proofs is not proof that proofs are inadequate.  

Insights I provided, wallah, are why I'm hated.
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#42

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:56 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:51 PM)evenheathen Wrote: I've just gotten better at spotting bullshit when I see it.

There is no reason for me to believe this.  It's your wish to be true, but you haven't show you can distinguish falsehood and truth well.

Seeing as this is our first interaction with each other, I can say the same for you. Good to meet you though, I hope. Welcome to the forum.
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#43

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 08:07 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 08:06 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 08:03 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: You confirm what I believe, that you don't want to know God exists, so irrationally deny proofs when reminded.  Some people can dialogue, why do you feel the need to open your mouth then?

You don't sound rational, you sound emotionally invested in Atheism and angry at me for attempting to prove God and the religion I believe is true. Either claim we should present proofs or claim we shouldn't and it should be left to faith or for humans to find out on their own,  but it's paradox, wallah, the way you guys present, damned if you and damned if you don't type of thing.

Pat yourself on the  head some more clown, it's kinda amusing to see those hobbled with chains of faith taking everything as confirmation of their innane beliefs.

Denial of proofs is not proofs are inadequate.  

Insights I provided, wallah, are why I'm hated.

Trolling, persecution complex (speaking of being hated) and rambling idiocy. You're quintessential internet believer.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#44

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 08:08 PM)evenheathen Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:56 PM)MysticKnight Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 07:51 PM)evenheathen Wrote: I've just gotten better at spotting bullshit when I see it.

There is no reason for me to believe this.  It's your wish to be true, but you haven't show you can distinguish falsehood and truth well.

Seeing as this is our first interaction with each other, I can say the same for you. Good to meet you though, I hope. Welcome to the forum.

I'm saying, we both assume this about each other. So there is no need to act as if any group, including Atheists, are better or more superior at distinguishing truth and falsehood, or being more sincere to the truth.

Every group claims sincerity to the truth and rational,  and those who oppose them as fools or insincere or stubborn, one of the three.

I shouldn't come you with notion that you should see me rational nor vice-versa.

So we should dialogue on content.
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#45

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 05:53 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Religion can be a positive or negative influence to a person, depending on many factors - just like any ideology. To say it always only ruins people to the extreme, like the OP did in the thread title, is simply incorrect and not factual. It isnt objective. Furthermore, it puts people of faith into a box that raises negative feelings and prejudices against those people. So that when you encounter a person who is not an atheist, you automatically assume they are damaged, a nut job, or that they would do horrible things like the guy in the video did. That is bigotry.

You mean you don't go around wanting to baptise people in a muddy pond, with a whiskey filled bible CL !! ?
What kind of watered down religion are you peddling ?
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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#46

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:43 PM)evenheathen Wrote:
(11-25-2018, 05:53 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Furthermore, it puts people of faith into a box that raises negative feelings and prejudices against those people. So that when you encounter a person who is not an atheist, you automatically assume they are damaged, a nut job, or that they would do horrible things like the guy in the video did. That is bigotry.
Except that I don't paint with such a broad brush, but thanks for implying that I do. My entire family is very religious, and for the most part some of the best and most rational people I know (except for the religious part). 

I know it seems like atheists do that, but that's because anonymous discussions on the internet never quite comport to what actual conversations are like in the really real world. Everything is put into a rather black and white context, which can be quite useful for some points, but not necessarily helpful for others. 
(11-25-2018, 05:53 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: You aren't the standard of what is most rational or logical nor the standard on how to observe the universe. You and all Atheists grouping up here, are not either.
Duly noted, friend.  Thumbs Up 

I'm sure you are just a shining beacon of rationality and logic.  Winking

EvenHeathen, I was referring to the title of the thread. Which sure made it sound like people of faith were all damaged by their religion.
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#47

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 05:53 PM)Catholic_Lady Wrote: EvenHeathen, I was referring to the title of the thread. Which sure made it sound like people of faith were all damaged by their religion.

Ah. My apologies.  Blush
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#48

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 07:53 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: You sound arrogant and foolish, if all you do is assert things with no backing up. 

Yes, you do.

Quote:If there is a burden for me to provide insights and proofs for my path, then there is a burden for those seeking those proofs and demanding them, to listen.

You have come into an atheist forum and are attempting to prove to us that a god exists. We will examine any evidence you offer but so far you have offered nothing but arguments from ignorance and incredulity. We have heard them all many times and have no duty to listen to the same tired nonsense again.

Quote:And it's not good enough to reject those even if they are wrong, by, mere "They don't prove" etc, you have to show why, and where the error is.

You've been told at AF many times why your "proofs" fail. You have shown that you will not listen or recognize the fallacies that you engage in. I realize that you think you have iron-clad logical reasons to believe in a god but they are simply not convincing. I suggest you take some time and ask your god to provide you with the best argument and evidence so that you can finally prove your claims. What you have presented so far is not convincing.
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#49

This is what religion does to people
Which one of my arguments has been proven to be invalid or have a premise that is not rationally justified?
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#50

This is what religion does to people
(11-25-2018, 05:57 PM)MysticKnight Wrote: The point of the video is that religion is what people make it out to be.  This guy is mentally ill so comes out with the worse use of it due to his irrationality that is not totally his fault.
The point of the video is actually to show an apprehension and to get people to click the video so the channel can make some cash.
But I understand what you are saying.
And nobody is arguing against this. The guy is mentally ill and needs help and this is exactly what I said in the OP.
The OP was the generalization that Religion makes people mentally ill. Whether this man's mental illness stems from religion or not, I don't know and I won't assume either direction.
But generally speaking religion, no matter which, and including yours, are bad for mental health and bad for building a healthy society.
2+2=4
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