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Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
#26

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-29-2018, 01:13 AM)Grandizer Wrote:
(11-29-2018, 12:52 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Yes ... so would you would you say that the closer you get to psychopathy the further away you get from narcissism and the less narcissistic supply you need?

I don't think they're two different points on the same spectrum. I think psychopathy is its own syndrome and narcissism is another. But they could overlap and be observed in the same individual.

That was the debate back when I was researching. Apparently, now, they are being lumped together.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#27

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
It's all very interesting.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#28

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
That research totally changed the way I was looking at things.

When I started, I hated the malignant narcissist I knew. Hated him for the mayhem he caused to people I loved. Hated him for fooling me for quite some time. Hated him for turning on me when he realized I understood what he was doing.

The deeper I delved into this, the more I realized that he was a miserable human being. While I still thought he needed to be removed from society, I could not blame him anymore. And I could not hate him anymore. I was looking at him with clinical detachment and actually felt sorry for him. What a horrible way to live one's life, to be totally dependent on being able to extract adoration or fear from the people around him. I understood about narcissistic rage. And I understood that he had to deal with who he was, change was impossible. He simply didn't have the tools.

In turn, this changed my outlook on punitive behavior, wanting to punish people for bad things they did, revenge. We are all wired differently, and there is much we cannot control. We are lucky to be wired to fit within the norm. I have stopped holding some people responsible for some of their actions. They are mentally ill. And, some cannot be repaired, at least not yet. 

Of course I still believe that some people pose a threat to others and need to be removed from society. But I don't have an urge to punish them, they just need to be rendered incapable of causing damage to others.


The mismatch in the OP, the juxtaposition of the two people, makes sense. Psychology, psychiatry and neuro biology all need to eventually come together if we are ever going to be able to deal effectively with mental illness. They are different aspects of the same thing. And they are the core of "good and evil" in the world.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#29

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
Thank you for that post, Dom.

I appreciate it a great deal.

And you do appear to be a very compassionate and insightful human being. It takes a very big person to be able to accurately interpret those things the way you do now and to be able to apply that insight in your life rather than sticking to the standard, counterproductive, backward-looking, inhumanely human, revenge-seeking and finger-pointing mindset that most people have.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#30

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-29-2018, 11:35 AM)Dom Wrote: In the core, psychopaths are still narcissists. They are superior to all others. In everything. They are beyond needing affirmation, that is where the difference lies.

Both of the bold parts can't be true if the former part is referring to NPD and if NPD requires a need for that affirmation.

But I guess you didn't say NPD and perhaps it's extreme narcissism but not NPD because the latter requires a false self, attention and praise but the former is simply self-love taken to the extreme?

I guess psychopaths get all their supply from themselves and people are just objects to them?
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#31

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(01-07-2019, 08:01 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(11-29-2018, 11:35 AM)Dom Wrote: In the core, psychopaths are still narcissists. They are superior to all others. In everything. They are beyond needing affirmation, that is where the difference lies.

Both of the bold parts can't be true if the former part is referring to NPD and if NPD requires a need for that affirmation.

But I guess you didn't say NPD and perhaps it's extreme narcissism but not NPD because the latter requires a false self, attention and praise but the former is simply self-love taken to the extreme?

I guess psychopaths get all their supply from themselves and people are just objects to them?

Let me put it this way. Both the narcissist and the psychopath are superior to everyone. That means they are narcissistic. But while the narcissist needs constant proof of this, the psychopath is self reliant.

They used to be considered separate illnesses, but have now been linked because of the underlying narcissism in both.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#32

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
Yeah, I guess narcissism at its core doesn't require admiration or a false self ... only NPD does.

So I guess I'm saying that NPD and Psychopathy are either both narcissistic disorders or they're both one narcissistic disorder on a spectrum and psychopathy is at the high end ... rather than NPD being a subcategory of psychopathy or vice versa.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#33

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(01-07-2019, 10:20 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Yeah, I guess narcissism at its core doesn't require admiration or a false self ... only NPD does.

So I guess I'm saying that NPD and Psychopathy are either both narcissistic disorders or they're both one narcissistic disorder on a spectrum and psychopathy is at the high end ... rather than NPD being a subcategory of psychopathy or vice versa.

That's what is being debated. Myself, I lean towards the spectrum with psychopathy on the high end. I think Sam holds the same view. He seems to be right at the border.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#34

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
... yet at the same time ... part of me does think that psychopaths don't all have high self esteem, though.

I think low functioning sociopaths can have a poor self esteem and psychopaths can have both an overly high or a neutral self esteem. I can easily imagine a psychopath not caring either way about whether they're good or bad or superior or inferior ... like the whole categorization of it all is meaningless to them and they ultimately only care about pleasure and excitement.

It's also been noted that psychopaths have been known to treat themselves sometimes even worse than they treat others. That they're prone to self-sabotage. It is a strong intution of mine that psychopaths are wholly selfish but they don't care about their future much due to their impulsivity and intense need for excitement. So the self-sabotage doesn't come from low self-esteem it comes from them not caring either way about their future and only caring about the excitement of the moment whether it hurts themselves or others or not (and hurting others is a juicy bonus if they're also sadistic). But they'll certainly take the excitement without the pain if they can ... unless they're also masochistic. But all things being equal they'll take pain + pleasure over neither. I don't think they lack fear but I do think they lack anxiety (they lack fear about the future and they lack fear about the unknown, basically: they would only feel afraid if they were in immediate danger. Hence why they tend to not be dissuaded by negative consequences very much).


Fundamentally I think that psychopaths either see other people as naught but objects, toys and playthings or they see both others and themselves as naught but objects, toys and playthings. In many cases I think it's the latter. But hurting yourself is no fun if it debilitates you so much that you're unable to continue enjoying hurting others. But sometimes they get so carried away with the excitement that they end up hurting themselves as well anyway. But it's worth it for them. Ultimately, it's all about stimulation, for psychopaths, rather than esteem.

Just my 2 cents.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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