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Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
#1

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
Part of it is simply two people talking past one another. But I found the discussion interesting nonetheless:



The clickbait title is retarded though. As there's nothing "furious" about this debate, lmao.

P.S. Lol even the narcissist's Skype photo looks incredibly narcissistic lol ... I hope that photo wasn't taken unironically Rofl2
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#2

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-23-2018, 04:40 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Part of it is simply two people talking past one another. But I found the discussion interesting nonetheless:



The clickbait title is retarded though. As there's nothing "furious" about this debate, lmao.

P.S. Lol even the narcissist's Skype photo looks incredibly narcissistic lol ... I hope that photo wasn't taken unironically Rofl2

I'll be watching this later for sure, but damn, that Vaknin dude, lol.
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#3

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. It's both interesting and morbidly amusing, lol.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#4

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
OH. MY. DOG!

Sam Vaknin! He is one of the very few admitted, outspoken people with this disorder. Some time ago, I had cause to investigate malignant narcissism. I went down that rabbit hole and didn't come back up for a couple of years. I needed to make sense of what made malignant narcissists tick.

Among the things I found was some chat group that was lead by Sam. Back then he called himself a malignant narcissist, the definitions have been moved around in the meantime. He was writing a book, I think, and he told the group what he was diagnosed with and wanted them to ask questions. He said it helped him organize his thoughts.

The group consisted of mostly women who had been married to malignant narcissists and were looking to understand wtf had happened to them. He thoroughly enjoyed being the center of attention, and probably the stories of those women also. I sat in those chats for weeks, listening to the women and Sam. I learned a ton about the disorder from what he said and how he acted, as well as the stories the women told.

When I thought I had seen all there was to see there, I emailed him and asked him for reading recommendations. He sent me those and also asked if I had any questions. I had a couple and he answered them. I thanked him and that was it. I went on to do a lot more research into it, but Sam was very useful. He was out in the open about it, unabashed and smart and educated.

I am 100%, without the slightest doubt, convinced that trump is a malignant narcissist, or a narcissist bordering on psychopath.

I think we all can agree on the narcissism, it's so obvious. And what Sam said about the narcissistic supply is right on the money - love or hate, he must extract one or the other. So you are good for something as long as you either love or hate the narcissist. Both give him the attention he needs and make him powerful. If you fail to provide any more, you become a villain and malignant narcissists never forget. Just one example - the NFL Long ago, they rejected trump from ownership. Hence the whole hoopla about the standing for the anthem - trying to get his base to boycott the NFL. Also, there are hundreds of tweets persecuting people who slighted him somehow. 

Malignant narcissists come on all levels of intelligence, and while trump is not all that intelligent, he is sly. He is good at reading people, and he is good at manipulating. Hell, the man gaslighted half a nation. 

Narcissists don't lie because they are always right in their present perception. Whatever they say is the truth at that time. Unless they are story telling, like reality television. And then it's not a lie, it's a brilliant art.

I could go on and on.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#5

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
Yeah he seems like a very interesting and intelligent guy.

And I definitely have more respect for psychopaths and narcissists who come out with the disorder rather than just abuse people in secret, lol. I guess he's rather cleverly used his own diagnosis as a way to get narcissistic supply. He gets attention from making a career out of talking about his need for attention, lol.

I get morbidly curious watching his videos Tongue

As for Trump and Narcissism:

My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#6

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-27-2018, 01:57 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: And I definitely have more respect for psychopaths and narcissists who come out with the disorder rather than just abuse people in secret, lol. I guess he's rather cleverly used his own diagnosis as a way to get narcissistic supply. He gets attention from making a career out of talking about his need for attention, lol. 


He is rare. Most of them are not at all introspective. There is also zero progress in treatment because they lie to the docs, and they only believe whatever suits their self image. And yes, he very smartly uses his disorder to feed his disorder. However, he is still a genuine malignant narcissist and you have to take everything he says with a grain of salt. 

I about had a cow when trump became President.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#7

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
I can tell he's being brutally honest rather than lying when he talks about how he feels no compassion for anyone but himself whatsoever. Although, according to him, I may be projecting there, lol.

And people who doubt that he's really a malignant narcissist should remind themselves that he's had both an official diagnosis of NPD and of Psychopathy.

Yes, most narcissists wouldn't come out and admit being narcissists ... but then most people wouldn't be able to make a career out of their narcissism and they'd end up with less supply if they came out because they'd be offered treatment. And no narcissist wants treatment.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#8

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-27-2018, 02:03 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: I can tell he's being brutally honest rather than lying when he talks about how he feels no compassion for anyone but himself whatsoever. Although, according to him, I may be projecting there, lol.

And people who doubt that he's really a malignant narcissist should remind themselves that he's had both an official diagnosis of NPD and of Psychopathy.

Yes, most narcissists wouldn't come out and admit being narcissists ... but then most people wouldn't be able to make a career out of their narcissism and they'd end up with less supply if they came out because they'd be offered treatment. And no narcissist wants treatment.

Well, they are in luck because there is no treatment, and as long as they lie to their docs and manipulate them, there surely won't be. Besides, as was pointed out in the first clip, there is just no empathy there, not in the sense of feeling with others. This type of narcissist realizes as child that s/he just doesn't get it, why do people act the way they do? So they categorize events and reactions. They learn to play-act the same reactions to fit in. And they learn to manipulate these reactions in others. Others become puppets who can be manipulated into supplying the much needed adoration and/or loathing. Once the puppet is used up and won't react properly anymore, it's discarded and, often, destroyed if possible. It's defective.

People don't see it coming because the narcissist is the most charming, sweet person when first you meet. And it's even genuine, the narcissist hopes with each person he meets that they have found a good, deserving individual. New people are elevated and put on a pedestal - paid attention to, praised, coddled. And then the person on the pedestal says something critical or suggests a different course of action and they fall from favor. And if they protest instead of slinking away quietly, they get persecuted.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#9

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-27-2018, 02:50 PM)Dom Wrote: realizes as child that s/he just doesn't get it, why do people act the way they do? So they categorize events and reactions. They learn to play-act the same reactions to fit in.

That part sounds like me, lol.

Quote: And they learn to manipulate these reactions in others. Others become puppets who can be manipulated into supplying the much needed adoration and/or loathing. Once the puppet is used up and won't react properly anymore, it's discarded and, often, destroyed if possible. It's defective.

One thing I find interesting is a video where Sam talked about how the difference between a narcissistic psychopath and a fully fledged Psychopath is that the malignant narcissist treats people like crap and manipulates them but he does it offhandedly as a manifestation of his condition. It is not as though he says to himself when he gets up in the morning "I really need to try and manipulate people in XYZ ways today so I can achieve my goals A B and C" ... he is just a manipulative person, automatically, as a result of his condition and inability to feel empathy (in the emotional sense) for anyone else.

The fully fledged psychopath on the other hand ... really does make premeditated plans about what to do to people on purpose in order to achieve his ends.

Both are manipulative and cunning but the narcissistic psychopath is very spur of the moment whereas the fully fledged psychopath is all about getting his other needs fulfilled ... people are still nothing but toys to them but not for attention ... they don't need people they just take what they want from them. A narcissist that spent all its time alone would crumble ... whereas a psychopath would be perfectly fine and would simply contact another human being when it felt like preying on someone to achieve other benefits ... be it money, sex, or whatever. The narcissistic psychopath/malignant narcissist is rather like a narcissist that is half way to psychopathy. They also use people for other things and also have no empathy but they really do need attention as well. Psychopaths don't, they're quite self-sufficient.

Trump is definitely a malignant narcissist because he doesn't just think he's great he very much needs others to confirm that he is and tell him that he is. A full fledged psychopath not only doesn't need to be told that they're great ... but some psychopaths are so devoid of most other emotions that they may not even be particularly grandiose. But they don't have low self esteem either. They're not interested in what others or even they think of themselves. They're just interested in pleasure seeking or money grabbing. Very fucked up individuals ... who are even less human than a narcissist. Narcissists may be so fucked up that they need other people to regulate their sense of self worth... but at least they have a sense of self worth. If the malignant narcissist is like a vampire sucking the life out of people then the psychopath is like a monster or predatory beast.

Quote:People don't see it coming because the narcissist is the most charming, sweet person when first you meet.

And high functioning narcissists continue to appear that way when in public and it is only in private that they are truly abusive. Low functioning narcissists have much less self control and they end up having tantrums in public when they receive a narcissist injury. The high functioning narcissist would wait until he got home to his family and take his rage out on them instead.

Quote:And it's even genuine,

Yes. And like Sam says the difference between the narcissist and the psychopath is that when the narcissist abuses his victims he does it offhandedly.

Here's a video on that:



Quote: the narcissist hopes with each person he meets that they have found a good, deserving individual. New people are elevated and put on a pedestal - paid attention to, praised, coddled.

I think my dad is and was an extreme narcisist... but he never accepted help and always insisted that there was nothing wrong with him ... and he would right?

For the first 12 years of my life he was a great father ... or a nice one. Looking back even when he was nice he always had to take credit for both the acheivements of his children and also the achievements of his wife.

Anyway, as soon as his marriage started going bad he went from repeatedly telling our mom and us children that we were all amazing and the best in the world and saying that it was because we're lucky to have such an amazing father/husband ... to telling us how awful we are ... he'd fall into a depression and then switch back and forth very quicky between manic niceness to going back to insulting us all and abusing us both psychologically and physically.

Once after some physical abuse we rang the police on him ... the police came over and he acted extremely nice and charismatic towards them ... he talked his way out of everything somehow and said that everything was going to be fine. As soon as they walked away he instantly went back to being horrible to us all again.

The final day when we had to escape, as a family, across the other side of the country involved a day where he was being especially violent and abusive to us and he told us that he'd kill us all if we ever rang the police on him. Then he went out to get his hair cut. My mom took us all by train to the other side of the country.

He managed to find where we live, somehow, and contact us all by email at some point ... where he insisted that he doesn't think we're lying about what he did to us and what happened, he thinks we honestly believe it all, but he says that we are all suffering from false memories ...

So yeah, my dad was pretty damn bad. He has no diagnosis whatsoever despite once being on an acute ward when in his early 20s after a psychopaic break ... and despite his mood swings. He always says he's different and zany and that the psychiatrists are full of shit and he doesn't need help. But if he was a narcissist he would say that right?

Anyway, I have two brothers and two sisters and I am his first born and was always his favorite child. After we left him behind I had a huge mental breakdown. And now I think it's because the only reason I thought I was ever good at anything is because he took credit for everything ... he was a helicopter parent that wouldn't even let my mom near me. It was hard for me to even make sense of anything without him. He always told me that I could be the best in the world at everything and that I'm a genius like he is. And I only ever felt disappointed because I could never live up to his absurd standards.

Anyway, this should probably go in the personal issues and support section at this point. But I'm an extremely happy person and I don't think I need any emotional support. Practical support, sure, that I'm getting help with in RL due to my autism. But emotionally I'm fine. I don't think about the past. But I'm happy to talk about the few things that I remember. It doesn't bother me. I've told many people this. It's not like I'm suddenly opening up or anything. It's all old hat to me.

Anyway, I may seem like I'm venting but I'm not. I don't really care about any of this, lol, because it doesn't affect me because my father is long gone and no longer in contact with us and that's probably for the best.

I just wanted to share a story from personal experience of what I think may be narcissism.

Quote: And then the person on the pedestal says something critical or suggests a different course of action and they fall from favor. And if they protest instead of slinking away quietly, they get persecuted.

Well, from the very beginning as a small child I was taught that his opinion was always right so the idea of disagreeing with him never even occurred to me. Except during arguments with him of course. In which he would either just shout very loud and angrily and say I wasn't allowed to use the family computer for a week (and then he'd let me use it again the day after and say he had been too harsh) .... or when things got really bad we'd end up physically fighting each other.

Anyway, just so you know I might have some personal experience on the matter. I dunno what your assessment is based merely on the information I've provided on what my father was/is like.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#10

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
Ah, yes, wife and children are something to brag about. Until they are not. The wife usually loses status eventually. With children it can go either way, depending on how much of his outstanding qualities he can project on them. 

The thing with you identifying yourself with an early development stage is nothing unusual, how you adapted to life and how you end up living is what matters, not how you get there. We all have traces of this and that. We are unique compilations of traces, it's how evolution sorts stuff.

Narcissist to malignant narcissist to psychopath - there are narcissists who are annoying but harmless, the malignancy adds the need to lash out and thusly inflict harm, and it culminates in psychopathy. It's like a ladder up during development, and people can stop at different rungs.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#11

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-27-2018, 06:12 PM)Dom Wrote: Ah, yes, wife and children are something to brag about. Until they are not. The wife usually loses status eventually. With children it can go either way, depending on how much of his outstanding qualities he can project on them.

Tell me about it. My narcissistic father never had much respect for my mother and has always made sure she was beneath him He was also verbally abusive to my siblings and I, and would talk shit about us behind our backs to random strangers. Then when we'd find out and call him out on it, he'd act like a victim and manipulate people into feeling sorry for him. Then when we'd have moments when we wouldn't want to talk to him or interact with him in any way, he'd bring people (usually his narcissistic siblings) over to the house just to force "peace" between us. Then we'd yield and talk again, and have "peace" for a couple of weeks before the abuse started to happen again. And the cycle would repeat. There have been times when I really wanted to hurt him.

Thankfully, I'm out of that toxic environment that he was responsible for, and living a state away with the person that I love. But I'll never ever want to be on good talking terms with him ever again. I will tolerate him when I have to interact with him on special family occasions, but that's about it.
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#12

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
There are really quite a lot of malignant narcissists out there, in all walks of life. If and when you recognize one, the best course of action is no contact. Albeit that doesn't always work, if they get it in their head that you are at fault for something they don't like, they can hound you for years, tirelessly.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#13

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-28-2018, 10:39 AM)Grandizer Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 06:12 PM)Dom Wrote: Ah, yes, wife and children are something to brag about. Until they are not. The wife usually loses status eventually. With children it can go either way, depending on how much of his outstanding qualities he can project on them.

Tell me about it. My narcissistic father never had much respect for my mother and has always made sure she was beneath him He was also verbally abusive to my siblings and I, and would talk shit about us behind our backs to random strangers. Then when we'd find out and call him out on it, he'd act like a victim and manipulate people into feeling sorry for him. Then when we'd have moments when we wouldn't want to talk to him or interact with him in any way, he'd bring people (usually his narcissistic siblings) over to the house just to force "peace" between us. Then we'd yield and talk again, and have "peace" for a couple of weeks before the abuse started to happen again. And the cycle would repeat. There have been times when I really wanted to hurt him.

Thankfully, I'm out of that toxic environment that he was responsible for, and living a state away with the person that I love. But I'll never ever want to be on good talking terms with him ever again. I will tolerate him when I have to interact with him on special family occasions, but that's about it.

Wow, so both of us have malignant narc fathers then ... he sounds almost as bad as mine. Although I understand that he may be at least as bad but you may not feel comfortable going into more details.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#14

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-27-2018, 06:12 PM)Dom Wrote: Ah, yes, wife and children are something to brag about. Until they are not. The wife usually loses status eventually. With children it can go either way, depending on how much of his outstanding qualities he can project on them. 

Indeed.

Quote:The thing with you identifying yourself with an early development stage is nothing unusual,

Do you mean NOT identifying with? I think that the reason why I'm so comfortable talking about it all is because I don't identify with any of it anymore.

Unless you're referring to back in early 2007, when I had my breakdown/meltdown, when I was 18, that I spoke of. Yes, I think back then I did, subconsciously identify with it all (none of it was conscious as I tried to avoid thinking about my dad ... and tried to see it as no big deal because he clearly wasn't the person I thought he was ... but after 18 years of being extremely close to him my analysis now is that that had very clearly DEFINITELY affected me ... and I was avoiding thinking about what had happened far more than was healthy, which was why I retreated into my delusional fantasy world and experienced psychosis, it was my brain's way of avoiding thinking about what had happened. That plus over 60 hours of zero sleep definitely didn't help).

Quote:how you adapted to life and how you end up living is what matters, not how you get there.

Indeed.

Quote: We all have traces of this and that.

None that I'm aware of ... I don't think I'm anything like him. I think the only time I was was when I was an adolescent and he didn't let me have any opinion of my own. I've become very independent and fully grown as a person over the last 12 years.

Quote: We are unique compilations of traces, it's how evolution sorts stuff.

Indeed.

Quote:Narcissist to malignant narcissist to psychopath - there are narcissists who are annoying but harmless, the malignancy adds the need to lash out and thusly inflict harm, and it culminates in psychopathy. It's like a ladder up during development, and people can stop at different rungs.

I agree except that I think that a fully fledged psychopath need not be narcissistic ... and a malignant narcissist is halfway to psychopath. Again, I think that whereas it's incredibly unhealthy for a narcissist to use other people to regulate their sense of self... at least they have a sense of self ... whereas the psychopath doesn't give a fuck about positive or negative self esteem or attention ... with the full blown psychopath it's not that others are extensions of themselves... it's that they literally don't care at all about other people, whether they're extensions of themselves or real people with feelings. They just don't care. They're not capable of caring. Just like the narcissist... but the psychopath, unlike the narcissist, is perfectly content in solitude, doesn't need people, and certainly doesn't need people to tell them how great they are. The psychopath doesn't care whether they're great or not great, good or bad, the psychopath is content on their own ... but when they DO go out into the world and do come into contact with people ... people are just objects of gratification, as far as they are concerned. Similar to the maligant Narcissist/Borderline psychopath, but without any sort of need for attention. Full blown psychopaths don't give a fuck about self esteem... they're more interested in money, sex, or any other sort of pleasure to feed their intense impulses, their desperate and constant need for excitement, and their chronic boredom. Whether this means that other people suffer or not.

Although, technically, psychopaths have weak impulses ... it's just that their impulse for self-control is even weaker ... so unlike normal people they have no ability to override their impulses. Psychopaths can indeed have good self control and can be very cunning ... but only when they are able to amuse themselves with something else in the meantime, and they certainly have far more plans that go unfinished than plans that go finished ... they also struggle to care about consequences even when they know that consequences are important. Psychopaths are often thought of as at least as self-destructive as they are destructive to other people. But then they are also thought of as completely selfish and only caring about themselves. How do I resolve this paradox? How do I suggest that it can be explained that psychopaths both fully care 100% about themselves and are also self-destructive? Well, besides the obvious fact that their need for constant excitement can get them into trouble, they also only care about themselves in the present moment. They are indeed fully 100% selfish ... but the reason why they are often self-destructive is because they have as little empathy and compassion for their future self as they do for anyone else. To them, their future self is like a stranger, who they don't really particularly care if they suffer consequences from their actions or not ... but then at the same time they're also careful because it's natural and innate to avoid things that cause us harm, even when we don't care about our future consciously. Anyway, that's my analysis, and my two cents on how psychopathy works and how it differs from maligant narcissism when the psychopathy is full blown. I hope you found this an interesting read, @Dom.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
Reply
#15

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-28-2018, 02:06 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 06:12 PM)Dom Wrote: Ah, yes, wife and children are something to brag about. Until they are not. The wife usually loses status eventually. With children it can go either way, depending on how much of his outstanding qualities he can project on them. 

Indeed.

Quote:The thing with you identifying yourself with an early development stage is nothing unusual,

Do you mean NOT identifying with? I think that the reason why I'm so comfortable talking about it all is because I don't identify with any of it anymore.

Unless you're referring to back in early 2007, when I had my breakdown/meltdown, when I was 18, that I spoke of. Yes, I think back then I did, subconsciously identify with it all (none of it was conscious as I tried to avoid thinking about my dad ... and tried to see it as no big deal because he clearly wasn't the person I thought he was ... but after 18 years of being extremely close to him my analysis now is that that had very clearly DEFINITELY affected me ... and I was avoiding thinking about what had happened far more than was healthy, which was why I retreated into my delusional fantasy world and experienced psychosis, it was my brain's way of avoiding thinking about what had happened. That plus over 60 hours of zero sleep definitely didn't help).

Quote:how you adapted to life and how you end up living is what matters, not how you get there.

Indeed.

Quote: We all have traces of this and that.

None that I'm aware of ... I don't think I'm anything like him. I think the only time I was was when I was an adolescent and he didn't let me have any opinion of my own. I've become very independent and fully grown as a person over the last 12 years.

Quote: We are unique compilations of traces, it's how evolution sorts stuff.

Indeed.

Quote:Narcissist to malignant narcissist to psychopath - there are narcissists who are annoying but harmless, the malignancy adds the need to lash out and thusly inflict harm, and it culminates in psychopathy. It's like a ladder up during development, and people can stop at different rungs.

I agree except that I think that a fully fledged psychopath need not be narcissistic ... and a malignant narcissist is halfway to psychopath. Again, I think that whereas it's incredibly unhealthy for a narcissist to use other people to regulate their sense of self... at least they have a sense of self ... whereas the psychopath doesn't give a fuck about positive or negative self esteem or attention ... with the full blown psychopath it's not that others are extensions of themselves... it's that they literally don't care at all about other people, whether they're extensions of themselves or real people with feelings. They just don't care. They're not capable of caring. Just like the narcissist... but the psychopath, unlike the narcissist, is perfectly content in solitude, doesn't need people, and certainly doesn't need people to tell them how great they are. The psychopath doesn't care whether they're great or not great, good or bad, the psychopath is content on their own ... but when they DO go out into the world and do come into contact with people ... people are just objects of gratification, as far as they are concerned. Similar to the maligant Narcissist/Borderline psychopath, but without any sort of need for attention. Full blown psychopaths don't give a fuck about self esteem... they're more interested in money, sex, or any other sort of pleasure to feed their intense impulses, their desperate and constant need for excitement, and their chronic boredom. Whether this means that other people suffer or not.

Although, technically, psychopaths have weak impulses ... it's just that their impulse for self-control is even weaker ... so unlike normal people they have no ability to override their impulses. Psychopaths can indeed have good self control and can be very cunning ... but only when they are able to amuse themselves with something else in the meantime, and they certainly have far more plans that go unfinished than plans that go finished ... they also struggle to care about consequences even when they know that consequences are important. Psychopaths are often thought of as at least as self-destructive as they are destructive to other people. But then they are also thought of as completely selfish and only caring about themselves. How do I resolve this paradox? How do I suggest that it can be explained that psychopaths both fully care 100% about themselves and are also self-destructive? Well, besides the obvious fact that their need for constant excitement can get them into trouble, they also only care about themselves in the present moment. They are indeed fully 100% selfish ... but the reason why they are often self-destructive is because they have as little empathy and compassion for their future self as they do for anyone else. To them, their future self is like a stranger, who they don't really particularly care if they suffer consequences from their actions or not ... but then at the same time they're also careful because it's natural and innate to avoid things that cause us harm, even when we don't care about our future consciously. Anyway, that's my analysis, and my two cents on how psychopathy works and how it differs from maligant narcissism when the psychopathy is full blown. I hope you found this an interesting read, @Dom.


Both the malignant narcissist and the psychopath think they are smarter than everyone. That is what makes both reckless. And that is where the root of psychopathy is in narcissism. Psychopaths are still narcissists - but they don't need narcissistic supply to prop them up. Their superiority is a settled fact. The recklessness and feeling of superiority leading to self destruction applies to both.

Adolescents appear similar to that:

Quote:Pictures of the brain in action show that adolescents' brains work differently than adults when they make decisions or solve problems. Their actions are guided more by the emotional and reactive amygdala and less by the thoughtful, logical frontal cortex. Research has also shown that exposure to drugs and alcohol during the teen years can change or delay these developments.
Based on the stage of their brain development, adolescents are more likely to:
  • act on impulse

  • misread or misinterpret social cues and emotions

  • get into accidents of all kinds

  • get involved in fights

  • engage in dangerous or risky behavior
Adolescents are less likely to:
  • think before they act

  • pause to consider the consequences of their actions

  • change their dangerous or inappropriate behaviors

So, that can appear similar to reckless narcissistic behavior, but it's a different thing altogether and purely temporary. It's due to changes happening in the still growing brain and new synapses being formed during that time.

Disorders all are exaggerations of "normalcy". That's why it's not a good idea for people to go looking for self diagnoses by going down the rabbit hole that is psychology and psychiatry. There are bits and pieces of most disorders in all of us, but they have "normal" dimensions.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#16

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-28-2018, 01:51 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:39 AM)Grandizer Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 06:12 PM)Dom Wrote: Ah, yes, wife and children are something to brag about. Until they are not. The wife usually loses status eventually. With children it can go either way, depending on how much of his outstanding qualities he can project on them.

Tell me about it. My narcissistic father never had much respect for my mother and has always made sure she was beneath him He was also verbally abusive to my siblings and I, and would talk shit about us behind our backs to random strangers. Then when we'd find out and call him out on it, he'd act like a victim and manipulate people into feeling sorry for him. Then when we'd have moments when we wouldn't want to talk to him or interact with him in any way, he'd bring people (usually his narcissistic siblings) over to the house just to force "peace" between us. Then we'd yield and talk again, and have "peace" for a couple of weeks before the abuse started to happen again. And the cycle would repeat. There have been times when I really wanted to hurt him.

Thankfully, I'm out of that toxic environment that he was responsible for, and living a state away with the person that I love. But I'll never ever want to be on good talking terms with him ever again. I will tolerate him when I have to interact with him on special family occasions, but that's about it.

Wow, so both of us have malignant narc fathers then ... he sounds almost as bad as mine. Although I understand that he may be at least as bad but you may not feel comfortable going into more details.

I don't mind really. I'm no longer so affected by his behavior, now that he's "permanently" outside of my zone. I do know he is waiting very patiently, for the time when I will eventually yield and make "peace" with him again (this time, all on my own), but I won't give him that satisfaction. When he dies, I'm not going to shed any tears for him; I'll just feel a lot of relief, especially for my mother, who still to this day has to put up with him and his abusive behavior.
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#17

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
Oh, forgot to respond to this one:

(11-27-2018, 06:12 PM)Dom Wrote: Narcissist to malignant narcissist to psychopath - there are narcissists who are annoying but harmless.

That would be one of my brothers, actually. I suspect he would be diagnosable with something like HPD given his need to be in the spotlight at all times, but nevertheless the worst he can be is annoying and overly dramatic. I tend to avoid him as well when I can, though more out of not wanting to be involved in his drama than out of spite. Sometimes I'll be in the mood and talk to him regardless.
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#18

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
I was thinking earlier today when I was walking to where I volunteer ...

I reckon that Narcissists are people who have had there sense of self damaged so that they develop a false self to cope with that damage/trauma to their sense of self.

Malignant narcissists are particularly sadistic narcissists who also have a false self because they have had their sense of self damaged even further. They're also borderline sociopaths.

Full-blown sociopaths are people who have either had their sense of self damaged so severely that it basically no longer exists ... which is why they are no longer narcissistic because they don't even have a false self left ... people are nothing but toys to them ... but they no longer even care about self esteem/attention/being famous or infamous/having a social life. They don't give a fuck what anyone thinks and their inability to develop proper relationships is even more severe than with narcissists.

Full-blown psychopaths are the same as above except that they were born either with no sense of self or the inability to develop a sense of self. Rather than having it severely damaged to the point of destruction. The difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that the sociopath was born with a normal and healthy sense of self but they had it severely damaged ... whereas the psychopath was born without one and without the ability to develop one. The difference is one of nature vs nurture.

That analysis makes a lot of sense to me. Thoughts?
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#19

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-28-2018, 11:24 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: I was thinking earlier today when I was walking to where I volunteer ...

I reckon that Narcissists are people who have had there sense of self damaged so that they develop a false self to cope with that damage/trauma to their sense of self.

Malignant narcissists are particularly sadistic narcissists who also have a false self because they have had their sense of self damaged even further. They're also borderline sociopaths.

Full-blown sociopaths are people who have either had their sense of self damaged so severely that it basically no longer exists ... which is why they are no longer narcissistic because they don't even have a false self left ... people are nothing but toys to them ... but they no longer even care about self esteem/attention/being famous or infamous/having a social life. They don't give a fuck what anyone thinks and their inability to develop proper relationships is even more severe than with narcissists.

Full-blown psychopaths are the same as above except that they were born either with no sense of self or the inability to develop a sense of self. Rather than having it severely damaged to the point of destruction. The difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that the sociopath was born with a normal and healthy sense of self but they had it severely damaged ... whereas the psychopath was born without one and without the ability to develop one. The difference is one of nature vs nurture.  

That analysis makes a lot of sense to me. Thoughts?


Last time I looked the theory was that malignant narcissists begin to visibly go down that road at the age when baby starts differentiating between me and you. Baby fails to recognize "the other" as being the same as itself, to have feelings, to be human. It continues to be the center of it's universe and soon notices that "the other" will do it's bidding according to cues given. We are all born narcissists, we just feel ourselves at first and have no understanding of others. The malignant narcissist never learns to make that step, to form that bond, just to catalogue and manipulate the other. 

Whether that is a mishap at this stage of development due to environment, or whether it is innate wasn't determined at the time. It's been a long time since I looked into this, and there are constant new findings in the field.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#20

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-28-2018, 11:56 PM)Dom Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 11:24 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: I was thinking earlier today when I was walking to where I volunteer ...

I reckon that Narcissists are people who have had there sense of self damaged so that they develop a false self to cope with that damage/trauma to their sense of self.

Malignant narcissists are particularly sadistic narcissists who also have a false self because they have had their sense of self damaged even further. They're also borderline sociopaths.

Full-blown sociopaths are people who have either had their sense of self damaged so severely that it basically no longer exists ... which is why they are no longer narcissistic because they don't even have a false self left ... people are nothing but toys to them ... but they no longer even care about self esteem/attention/being famous or infamous/having a social life. They don't give a fuck what anyone thinks and their inability to develop proper relationships is even more severe than with narcissists.

Full-blown psychopaths are the same as above except that they were born either with no sense of self or the inability to develop a sense of self. Rather than having it severely damaged to the point of destruction. The difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that the sociopath was born with a normal and healthy sense of self but they had it severely damaged ... whereas the psychopath was born without one and without the ability to develop one. The difference is one of nature vs nurture.  

That analysis makes a lot of sense to me. Thoughts?


Last time I looked the theory was that malignant narcissists begin to visibly go down that road at the age when baby starts differentiating between me and you. Baby fails to recognize "the other" as being the same as itself, to have feelings, to be human. It continues to be the center of it's universe and soon notices that "the other" will do it's bidding according to cues given. We are all born narcissists, we just feel ourselves at first and have no understanding of others. The malignant narcissist never learns to make that step, to form that bond, just to catalogue and manipulate the other. 

Whether that is a mishap at this stage of development due to environment, or whether it is innate wasn't determined at the time. It's been a long time since I looked into this, and there are constant new findings in the field.

That's interesting. I had no idea it started that early.

Another thing I find interesting is that malignant narcissists are also borderline psychopaths.

But do you agree with me that a full-blown psychopath doesn't necessarily need attention to regulate his sense of self-worth? I'm not aware that a full blown psychopath has a false self.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#21

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-29-2018, 12:11 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 11:56 PM)Dom Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 11:24 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: I was thinking earlier today when I was walking to where I volunteer ...

I reckon that Narcissists are people who have had there sense of self damaged so that they develop a false self to cope with that damage/trauma to their sense of self.

Malignant narcissists are particularly sadistic narcissists who also have a false self because they have had their sense of self damaged even further. They're also borderline sociopaths.

Full-blown sociopaths are people who have either had their sense of self damaged so severely that it basically no longer exists ... which is why they are no longer narcissistic because they don't even have a false self left ... people are nothing but toys to them ... but they no longer even care about self esteem/attention/being famous or infamous/having a social life. They don't give a fuck what anyone thinks and their inability to develop proper relationships is even more severe than with narcissists.

Full-blown psychopaths are the same as above except that they were born either with no sense of self or the inability to develop a sense of self. Rather than having it severely damaged to the point of destruction. The difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that the sociopath was born with a normal and healthy sense of self but they had it severely damaged ... whereas the psychopath was born without one and without the ability to develop one. The difference is one of nature vs nurture.  

That analysis makes a lot of sense to me. Thoughts?


Last time I looked the theory was that malignant narcissists begin to visibly go down that road at the age when baby starts differentiating between me and you. Baby fails to recognize "the other" as being the same as itself, to have feelings, to be human. It continues to be the center of it's universe and soon notices that "the other" will do it's bidding according to cues given. We are all born narcissists, we just feel ourselves at first and have no understanding of others. The malignant narcissist never learns to make that step, to form that bond, just to catalogue and manipulate the other. 

Whether that is a mishap at this stage of development due to environment, or whether it is innate wasn't determined at the time. It's been a long time since I looked into this, and there are constant new findings in the field.

That's interesting. I had no idea it started that early.

Another thing I find interesting is that malignant narcissists are also borderline psychopaths.

But do you agree with me that a full-blown psychopath doesn't necessarily need attention to regulate his sense of self-worth? I'm not aware that a full blown psychopath has a false self.

It's a matter of degree. Sam considers himself to be on the cusp between malignant narcissism and psychopathy. So he still needs some narcissistic supply, but it's not that urgent. It can wait. He always welcomes it though, and he frequently solicits it. Trump seems to need it almost constantly. He gets big doses at those rallies. He also gets it from reporters and underlings and....
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#22

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
Yes ... so would you would you say that the closer you get to psychopathy the further away you get from narcissism and the less narcissistic supply you need?
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#23

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-29-2018, 12:52 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Yes ... so would you would you say that the closer you get to psychopathy the further away you get from narcissism and the less narcissistic supply you need?

I don't think they're two different points on the same spectrum. I think psychopathy is its own syndrome and narcissism is another. But they could overlap and be observed in the same individual.
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#24

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
I do think they're different but I am starting to think that perhaps they have the same sort of cause ... they both involve damages to the self or being born without a self/incomplete self.

The Narcissist protects their damaged/traumatized self with a false self. The psychopath doesn't even develop one or they've had it so damaged and traumatized that they are unable to even protect it with a false self. Just my musings on the matter.

They can overlap, yes. And you can be fully psychopathic and not at all narcissistic and vice versa. But I am starting to think that it may be on some sort of spectrum ... as Sam Vatkin points out in the video in the OP: Experts themselves are starting to think that it's not so clear that they're two separate conditions and they're thinking of combining them both into one condition in the next DSM. So, food for thought there.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#25

Philosophical/scientific debate on empathy/mirror neurons.
(11-29-2018, 12:52 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Yes ... so would you would you say that the closer you get to psychopathy the further away you get from narcissism and the less narcissistic supply you need?

In the core, psychopaths are still narcissists. They are superior to all others. In everything. They are beyond needing affirmation, that is where the difference lies. That is why most in the field consider it a progression from narcissism. A more severe form of it. Also, narcissists who depend on narcissistic supply are just as cold as psychopaths. They just play act in order to get their supply.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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