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Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
#1

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
We had a really good thread on a topic very close to my heart on TFTSNBN, so let's reopen the discussion...

"For weeks, Audrey Parker had been organizing what she called her “beautiful death”, carefully planning every detail of her final days, and even writing her own obituary.

Parker, a television makeup artist, was in excruciating pain as cancer crept from her breast into her bones and brain, and intended to end her life before the suffering became too overwhelming.

But because Canadian federal law required that she was lucid at the time of death – and fearing that the combined effects of cancer and medication could rob her of that clarity – Parker was forced to end her life months before she had intended to die.

With the help of a nurse, Audrey Parker passed away on 1 November, surrounded by friends and family in her Halifax home. She was 57.

Parker’s lost battle for greater autonomy in medically assisted death has reignited a debate over Canada’s legislation on medically assisted death, which critics say forces terminally ill people to choose two equally unpalatable choices: a death that is premature, or one that is painful.

[...]

Parker was assessed and approved, but a key provision in the law – that she be of full mental capacity when the decision to terminate life is made – derailed her plans.

“When we realized the implications of the late-stage consent, it was very disturbing,” said King. “She was so courageous to face her death head on.”

If she wanted to die on her own terms, it would have to be when she was still mentally sound. While she wanted to live to see another Christmas, she told friends she couldn’t run the risk of waiting too long.

[...]

“She was worried about how this cancer had ravaged her body so aggressively that if she waited too long, she would lose capacity and then she would be completely denied the right to have an assisted death,” said Shanaaz Gokool, head of Dying with Dignity Canada. “And then she would die in a manner she knew will be horrible.”

For clinicians and bioethicists, Parker’s fight encapsulates an ongoing debate within the medical community surrounding how to best help patients in their final days.

“A lot of us knew when the legislation came down, that this would be one of the next battle grounds,” said Chris Kaposy, a bioethicist at Memorial University. While the law has produced troubling situations like Parker’s, it also aims to protect vulnerable people, said Kaposy.

Clinical ethicists often grapple with instances of patients with late-stage dementia, some of whom have requested physician-assisted death – but later forget these wishes and go on to live contented lives, he said.

[...]

Only three countries permit people to plan their death beforehand, and do not require competency at the moment of death: the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Belgium.

But according to King, “[Parker] didn’t suffer from dementia, she wasn’t vulnerable. And she was very clear about what she wanted.”

Parker’s death has prompted a fresh debate on end-of-life planning in Canada, said Dr Jeff Blackmer, vice-president of the Canadian Medical Association. “If you agree with assisted dying or not, one of the silver linings to this has been a more open discussion about death and dying in Canada – and about the choices that we make at the end of our lives,” he said.

A government panel which is studying the existing legislation will release its full report in December, but will not make any recommendations, and the government will not be required to act.

The day after Parker’s death, the federal justice minister, Jody Wilson-Raybould, expressed no intention of amending the current law. “We’re not considering changing something in the legislation,” she told reporters, adding that she and the government were “confident in the legislation”.

While the minister’s position disappointed King and other friends, they see it as a reason to keep pushing hard for changes in the law, continuing the battle Parker fought to the end.

“Until she took her last breath yesterday, she never wavered,” said King. “It was just so beautiful.”
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#2

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
This is how it is handled in the US states that allow it:


Quote:As of April 5, 2018, California, Colorado, District of Columbia, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington have death with dignity statutes; the Hawaii statute, approved in 2018, goes into effect on January 1, 2019. In Montana, physician-assisted dying has been legal by State Supreme Court ruling since 2009.


Quote:To qualify for a prescription under physician-assisted dying laws, you must be
  • a resident of California, Colorado, District of Columbia, Hawaii (beginning on January 1, 2019), Oregon, Vermont, or Washington; and

  • 18 years of age or older; and

  • mentally competent, i.e. capable of making and communicating your health care decisions; and

  • diagnosed with a terminal illness that will, within reasonable medical judgment, lead to death within six months.
You must also be able to self-administer and ingest the prescribed medication. All of these requirements must be met without exception.
You will not qualify under aid-in-dying laws solely because of age or disability.
Two physicians must determine whether all these criteria have been met.

https://www.deathwithdignity.org/learn/access/
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#3

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
I don't need no fucking assistance. A bottle of nitrogen gas from a paintball gun, some tubing and fittings and a Ziploc bag and get the fuck out of the room. I don't need or want your fucking assistance in this matter. ... Smile
Amor fati.
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#4

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-07-2018, 07:39 AM)GirlyMan Wrote: I don't need no fucking assistance. A bottle of nitrogen gas from a paintball gun, some tubing and fittings and a Ziploc bag and get the fuck out of the room. I don't need or want your fucking assistance in this matter. ... Smile

I was promised a sufficient quantity of barbiturates for the job, but my back-up plan is a .45 ACP.   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

My life, my choice.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it.
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#5

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
Canada law may be not perfect in this regard but at least it gives one option of dying with dignity. I could only wish for Poland being even half as rational when it comes to euthanasia.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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#6

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
In Oregon "Death with Dignity" law was passed by voter initiative in 1994.  It was immediately challenged by the federal government and litigation went on for two years.  That disposed of, conservative religious elements in the state put an initiative to repeal the law on the ballot in 1997, and for a second time Oregonians supported the law, albeit by a slim majority.

There is an important legal distinction between "euthanasia" and "assisted suicide".  Technically, the first is being put to death by another person, either on their judgment of mercy, or by request.  With assisted suicide, a doctor may provide the patient with the means of ending their life, but the final administration of those means must be done by the patient themselves.  

Euthanasia is illegal everywhere in the United States (with extremely rare exceptions having been granted by court review of individual cases where a person has remained in a persistent vegetative state for a great length of time.)

What exists in Oregon, Washington, California, Hawaii, Colorado, and Vermont (and unofficially in Montana) is doctor assisted suicide, not euthanasia.  DAS was a hard sell, even here; euthanasia never would have gotten off the ground.
" I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry. "
                                                                                 -- John Cage
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#7

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-07-2018, 01:14 PM)Chas Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 07:39 AM)GirlyMan Wrote: I don't need no fucking assistance. A bottle of nitrogen gas from a paintball gun, some tubing and fittings and a Ziploc bag and get the fuck out of the room. I don't need or want your fucking assistance in this matter. ... Smile

I was promised a sufficient quantity of barbiturates for the job, but my back-up plan is a .45 ACP.   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

My life, my choice.

Your backup plan is too messy, have some consideration and decency, man. Your primary plan is not a bad option. It's kind of like why they don't prescribe barbiturates anymore. Smile
Amor fati.
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#8

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-07-2018, 11:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 01:14 PM)Chas Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 07:39 AM)GirlyMan Wrote: I don't need no fucking assistance. A bottle of nitrogen gas from a paintball gun, some tubing and fittings and a Ziploc bag and get the fuck out of the room. I don't need or want your fucking assistance in this matter. ... Smile

I was promised a sufficient quantity of barbiturates for the job, but my back-up plan is a .45 ACP.   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

My life, my choice.

Too messy, have some consideration.

Yep, too messy, unless you go out into the woods....
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#9

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-07-2018, 11:25 PM)Dom Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 11:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 01:14 PM)Chas Wrote: I was promised a sufficient quantity of barbiturates for the job, but my back-up plan is a .45 ACP.   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

My life, my choice.

Too messy, have some consideration.

Yep, too messy, unless you go out into the woods....

Sea of Trees
Amor fati.
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#10

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-07-2018, 10:19 PM)Dr H Wrote: In Oregon "Death with Dignity" law was passed by voter initiative in 1994.  It was immediately challenged by the federal government and litigation went on for two years.  That disposed of, conservative religious elements in the state put an initiative to repeal the law on the ballot in 1997, and for a second time Oregonians supported the law, albeit by a slim majority.

There is an important legal distinction between "euthanasia" and "assisted suicide".  Technically, the first is being put to death by another person, either on their judgment of mercy, or by request.  With assisted suicide, a doctor may provide the patient with the means of ending their life, but the final administration of those means must be done by the patient themselves.  

Euthanasia is illegal everywhere in the United States (with extremely rare exceptions having been granted by court review of individual cases where a person has remained in a persistent vegetative state for a great length of time.)

What exists in Oregon, Washington, California, Hawaii, Colorado, and Vermont (and unofficially in Montana) is doctor assisted suicide, not euthanasia.  DAS was a hard sell, even here; euthanasia never would have gotten off the ground.

That's why it's called the "death with dignity" act.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#11

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-07-2018, 11:25 PM)Dom Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 11:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 01:14 PM)Chas Wrote: I was promised a sufficient quantity of barbiturates for the job, but my back-up plan is a .45 ACP.   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

My life, my choice.

Too messy, have some consideration.

Yep, too messy, unless you go out into the woods....

That's the plan.  Call 911 and tell them where to find me, pull the trigger.

I'd much rather use the barbiturates, though.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it.
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#12

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
"As the world’s pioneer, the Netherlands has also discovered that although legalising euthanasia might resolve one ethical conundrum, it opens a can of others – most importantly, where the limits of the practice should be drawn. In the past few years a small but influential group of academics and jurists have raised the alarm over what is generally referred to, a little archly, as the “slippery slope” – the idea that a measure introduced to provide relief to late-stage cancer patients has expanded to include people who might otherwise live for many years, from sufferers of muscle-wasting diseases such as multiple sclerosis to sexagenarians with dementia and even mentally ill young people."

"If western society continues to follow the Dutch, Belgian and Canadian examples, there is every chance that in a few decades’ time euthanasia will be one widely available option from a menu of possible deaths, including an “end of life” poison pill available on demand to anyone who finds life unbearable."

"Perhaps the most prominent of these sceptics is Theo Boer, who teaches ethics at the Theological University of Kampen." - colour me as unsurprised as I am unimpressed.

"Assuming it could be properly safeguarded (a big assumption) - like your whole joke of an article,, the completed-life pill would not necessarily displease many doctors I spoke to; it would allow them to get back to saving lives. But while some applicants for euthanasia are furious with doctors who turn them down, in practice people are unwilling to take their own lives. Rather than drink the poison or open the drip, 95% of applicants for active life termination in the Netherlands ask a doctor to kill them. In a society that vaunts its rejection of established figures of authority, when it comes to death, everyone asks for Mummy." - what talented, sensitive writer. Wait, he's neither of those things.

"Van Baarsen’s scruples have crystallised in the country’s first euthanasia malpractice case, which prosecutors are now preparing. (Three further cases are currently under investigation.) It involves a dementia sufferer who had asked to be killed when the “time” was “right”, but when her doctor judged this to be the case, she resisted. The patient had to be drugged and restrained by her family before she finally submitted to the doctor’s fatal injection. The doctor who administered the dose – who has not been identified – has defended her actions by saying that she was fulfilling her patient’s request and that, since the patient was incompetent, her protests before her death were irrelevant. Whatever the legal merits of her argument, it hardly changes what must have been a scene of unutterable grimness." - and that, you joke of a "journalist" is what dementia is and why the poor woman signed when she was still HERSELF!

"The more I learned about it, the more it seemed that euthanasia, while assigning commendable value to the end of life, might simultaneously cheapen life itself."

"But Dutch doctors don’t euthanise people because of depression – even if the more extreme advocates of the right to die think they should."

"Defenders of personal autonomy would say that Marc had no business interfering in his mother’s death, but beneath his anger lies the inconsolable sadness of a son who blames himself for not doing more. Marijke’s euthanasia was carried out according to the law, and will raise no alarms in the review board. It was also carried out without regard to her relatedness to other human beings."



What a vile, yet cowardly article. I feel dirty having waded through this thinly-veiled jeremiad. I hope *he* doesn't end up with a muscle-wasting disease... wait, why I do hope this - in his own words, people with those can live for years. Aren't they lucky!
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#13

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
These fucking busybodies just can't let others live (and die) in accordance with their own wishes.

Keep your goddamned noses out of my medical records, and out of my decisions.
<Insert intelligent thought here>
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#14

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-07-2018, 11:25 PM)Dom Wrote: Yep, too messy, unless you go out into the woods....

Well, the bears will definitely be having a picnic that day Angel

“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#15

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
This world and everyone in it is shit. The only reason suicide is illegal is to punish everyone with each others company.

Let's be honest.

(Oh and in case that wasn't clear enough, if people wanna blow their brains out. I'm not gonna stop them. If they want a doctor to help, not my problem. People who kill themselves are probably the only smart ones that were ever born)
The universe doesn't give a fuck about you. Don't cry though, at least I do.
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#16

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
I think that euthanasia should be available, as an option, for 100% of mentally healthy adults and 100% of terminally ill people.

A child that isn't terminally ill or an adult that is so severely mentally ill that their perspective is distorted so that they'd be very grateful to still be alive after they recover ... are literally the only examples of people who I think shouldn't have euthanasia as an option.

In the past when I was suicidal I would gladly have taken the option of being euthanized if I could have done. I'm extremely glad, now, that it was never an option in my country. But only because I was psychotic and very mentally ill and I am able to live a very happy life now that I have recovered (and the suicidality only lasted a few weeks so I'm very glad that I wasn't allowed to throw away decades of potential happiness because of that).

I also think that a child isn't mentally or emotionally mature enough to make a decision to end their lives. But I don't think that that should apply to a terminally ill child. In that case I think it's just a matter of ending extreme pain sooner rather than in a few months time.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#17

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-07-2018, 11:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 01:14 PM)Chas Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 07:39 AM)GirlyMan Wrote: I don't need no fucking assistance. A bottle of nitrogen gas from a paintball gun, some tubing and fittings and a Ziploc bag and get the fuck out of the room. I don't need or want your fucking assistance in this matter. ... Smile

I was promised a sufficient quantity of barbiturates for the job, but my back-up plan is a .45 ACP.   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

My life, my choice.

Your backup plan is too messy, have some consideration and decency, man.

[Image: tumblr_of2ykarMoc1tj5b5bo7_r1_250.gif]

[Image: yY17tWq.gif]

My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#18

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(01-18-2019, 08:27 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: I think that euthanasia should be available, as an option, for 100% of mentally healthy adults and 100% of terminally ill people.

A child that isn't terminally ill or an adult that is so severely mentally ill that their perspective is distorted so that they'd be very grateful to still be alive after they recover ... are literally the only examples of people who I think shouldn't have euthanasia as an option.

In the past when I was suicidal I would gladly have taken the option of being euthanized if I could have done. I'm extremely glad, now, that it was never an option in my country. But only because I was psychotic and very mentally ill and I am able to live a very happy life now that I have recovered (and the suicidality only lasted a few weeks so I'm very glad that I wasn't allowed to throw away decades of potential happiness because of that).

I also think that a child isn't mentally or emotionally mature enough to make a decision to end their lives. But I don't think that that should apply to a terminally ill child. In that case I think it's just a matter of ending extreme pain sooner rather than in a few months time.

As far as I know, the laws in effect in the US now, plus all the ones pending elections, state that it is only available to the terminally ill.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#19

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(01-18-2019, 08:43 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 11:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 01:14 PM)Chas Wrote: I was promised a sufficient quantity of barbiturates for the job, but my back-up plan is a .45 ACP.   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

My life, my choice.

Your backup plan is too messy, have some consideration and decency, man.

[Image: tumblr_of2ykarMoc1tj5b5bo7_r1_250.gif]

[Image: yY17tWq.gif]


I've had this fantasy for a few years now. or maybe a plan I don't know. Call up Amy the psychopath, tell her I need her help. Go out with her into the woods tied up and let her do whatever she wants until I die. The animals will clean it up. She would too, she has openly bragged about killing people and having people killed. She usually uses other people, I've done some pretty fucked up shit when I was under her control. She only tossed me aside when she pushed me too far and I had a complete mental breakdown on her. At that point I was no longer useful, or fun. It was time to find another victim.

Problem solved.
The universe doesn't give a fuck about you. Don't cry though, at least I do.
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#20

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(01-18-2019, 08:56 PM)Dom Wrote:
(01-18-2019, 08:27 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: I think that euthanasia should be available, as an option, for 100% of mentally healthy adults and 100% of terminally ill people.

A child that isn't terminally ill or an adult that is so severely mentally ill that their perspective is distorted so that they'd be very grateful to still be alive after they recover ... are literally the only examples of people who I think shouldn't have euthanasia as an option.

In the past when I was suicidal I would gladly have taken the option of being euthanized if I could have done. I'm extremely glad, now, that it was never an option in my country. But only because I was psychotic and very mentally ill and I am able to live a very happy life now that I have recovered (and the suicidality only lasted a few weeks so I'm very glad that I wasn't allowed to throw away decades of potential happiness because of that).

I also think that a child isn't mentally or emotionally mature enough to make a decision to end their lives. But I don't think that that should apply to a terminally ill child. In that case I think it's just a matter of ending extreme pain sooner rather than in a few months time.

As far as I know, the laws in effect in the US now, plus all the ones pending elections, state that it is only available to the terminally ill.

Based on what you told me, yes. I think it should be available to any mentally healthy adult, though.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#21

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(11-08-2018, 03:20 PM)Chas Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 11:25 PM)Dom Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 11:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote: Too messy, have some consideration.

Yep, too messy, unless you go out into the woods....

That's the plan.  Call 911 and tell them where to find me, pull the trigger.

I'd much rather use the barbiturates, though.

My cousins wife came home and found her father-in-law had shot himself in the head.  The scene was horrific.  She was in therapy for a couple of years.  They finally had to move to another house because the memories in that house were too horrible.    One time I was listening to a podcast of the worst jobs people do.  Cleaning up after a  gun to the head at close range was one of the worst.  Brain matter is everywhere.   Sometimes the drywall has to be replaced. The smell is hard to remove.  If I recall correctly, gun shot suicide clean up had a very high job turnover rate.   Just lettin ya know, Chas.
                                                         T4618
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#22

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(01-18-2019, 09:07 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote:
(01-18-2019, 08:56 PM)Dom Wrote:
(01-18-2019, 08:27 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: I think that euthanasia should be available, as an option, for 100% of mentally healthy adults and 100% of terminally ill people.

A child that isn't terminally ill or an adult that is so severely mentally ill that their perspective is distorted so that they'd be very grateful to still be alive after they recover ... are literally the only examples of people who I think shouldn't have euthanasia as an option.

In the past when I was suicidal I would gladly have taken the option of being euthanized if I could have done. I'm extremely glad, now, that it was never an option in my country. But only because I was psychotic and very mentally ill and I am able to live a very happy life now that I have recovered (and the suicidality only lasted a few weeks so I'm very glad that I wasn't allowed to throw away decades of potential happiness because of that).

I also think that a child isn't mentally or emotionally mature enough to make a decision to end their lives. But I don't think that that should apply to a terminally ill child. In that case I think it's just a matter of ending extreme pain sooner rather than in a few months time.

As far as I know, the laws in effect in the US now, plus all the ones pending elections, state that it is only available to the terminally ill.

Based on what you told me, yes. I think it should be available to any mentally healthy adult, though.

You can see what the laws are here: https://www.deathwithdignity.org/take-action/

If you scroll past the map, it lists all the states and, if you click on the state, their laws. They all differ a bit. What is really encouraging is the number of states who have this coming up for voting.

They try to stay away from complicated processes at this time, it's hard enough to get the votes with strict rules. Amendments can always be added in future...and determining what is a mentally healthy person and whether they may experience temporary instability versus permanent issues, is complicated. New laws like this first of all try to get their foot in the door.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#23

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(01-18-2019, 09:33 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(11-08-2018, 03:20 PM)Chas Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 11:25 PM)Dom Wrote: Yep, too messy, unless you go out into the woods....

That's the plan.  Call 911 and tell them where to find me, pull the trigger.

I'd much rather use the barbiturates, though.

My cousins wife came home and found her father-in-law had shot himself in the head.  The scene was horrific.  She was in therapy for a couple of years.  They finally had to move to another house because the memories in that house were too horrible.    One time I was listening to a podcast of the worst jobs people do.  Cleaning up after a  gun to the head at close range was one of the worst.  Brain matter is everywhere.   Sometimes the drywall has to be replaced. The smell is hard to remove.  If I recall correctly, gun shot suicide clean up had a very high job turnover rate.   Just lettin ya know, Chas.

I think Chas was planning to do this in the woods... I think he said that to me when I raised the same issue.
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#24

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
(01-18-2019, 08:20 PM)JesseB Wrote: This world and everyone in it is shit. The only reason suicide is illegal is to punish everyone with each others company.

Let's be honest.

(Oh and in case that wasn't clear enough, if people wanna blow their brains out. I'm not gonna stop them. If they want a doctor to help, not my problem. People who kill themselves are probably the only smart ones that were ever born)

Disagree. The smart ones are the ones who find a way through this world without getting poisoned by it.

Suicide might be on the menu when and if that time arrives for me ... but who's to say? Until then, I'm happy dealing with reality on its own terms and finding my happiness in this world. However it arrives, whether through the machinations of an evil world, your garden-variety case of cancer, or a sudden airplane crash or crossfire, I'm good. I made my peace with dying a long time ago, as a firefighter. Until the moment occurs, I'm going to live my ass off. I hope everyone reading this does, as well.
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#25

Euthanasia: a good and gentle death
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