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Poll: Do you have free will?
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YES, I DO have free will, in the sense that it is ultimately up to me, or ultimately my choice, which actions I take and when.
52.38%
11 52.38%
NO, I do NOT have free will, in the sense that it is NOT ultimately up to me, and NOT ultimately my choice, which actions I take and when.
47.62%
10 47.62%
Total 21 vote(s) 100%
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Does free will exist?

Does free will exist?
(08-06-2019, 10:01 AM)DLJ Wrote: And what if the self-driving car had the ability to tinker with its own programming so as to adjust its behaviour to novelty (new, previously un-encountered scenarios)?

Well, just like with us, all the self-programming it does would be ultimately down to factors it didn't program.

Quote:And what if, at a later stage of its self-development, it used this ability to not just cope with new if>thens but also developed advanced predictive modelling i.e. what if?>then what? (potential scenario impact analysis)? 

All of this only gets to compatibilism .. that's what.

Quote:And if that self-driving car became all discombobulated / overwhelmed by the sheer volume of new if>thens that it had to deal with, would we say that the self-driving car was suffering from some kind of neurosis? 

if it did suffer from neurosis ... that would be irrelevant. Feeling free and being free are different things. Like I said, all these arguments you are giving can only get you to compatabilism.

Quote:Would we then need self-driving car therapists to help those neurotic self-driving cars who refused to leave their garage?

Doesn't matter. It's not really relevant to Libertarian free will.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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Does free will exist?
(08-06-2019, 11:48 AM)Alan V Wrote: As humans, our consciousness continually creates new habits, adapts old ones, monitors their execution, imagines new possibilities, practices behaviors before we even act, and so on.  We consciously improvise and create, then evaluate the results for future improvements.

Doesn't matter that it's conscious. We consciously witness what we're doing and take credit for our actions but we're mistaken in taking that credit. Because all of our conscious decisions ultimately stem from unconscious factors.

Consciousness, and having a self/ego, leads to us thinking and feeling that we're free ... it doesn't lead to us actually being free (as always, "free" in the strongest possible sense. I'm referring to Libertarian Free Will, of course).
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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Does free will exist?
(08-08-2019, 01:14 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: We consciously witness what we're doing and take credit for our actions but we're mistaken in taking that credit. Because all of our conscious decisions ultimately stem from unconscious factors. 

On what is this assumption based?  I know it isn't based on science except as an unwarranted extrapolation from limited studies.

(08-08-2019, 01:14 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Consciousness, and having a self/ego, leads to us thinking and feeling that we're free ... it doesn't lead to us actually being free (as always, "free" in the strongest possible sense. I'm referring to Libertarian Free Will, of course).

This is a reiteration of your position.  I agree that libertarian free will isn't correct.  But you also dismiss compatibilism out-of-hand.  You think our human nature determines our acts in detail rather than in general, and gives us no free time to behave in accordance with our own self-developed interests.

I wonder, in your scheme of things, how do you explain the evolution of consciousness?  If it is merely epiphenomenal as you say, why would it have evolved at all?
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Does free will exist?
(08-08-2019, 01:12 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: ...
 Like I said, all these arguments you are giving can only get you to compatabilism.
...

Then, I suppose, that must be the right answer.  

Winking
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