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Flu Vaccination
#76

Flu Vaccination
Anti-vaxxers should only be allowed to have the eventual COVID-19 vaccine if they agree to also have their
children vaccinated against DTaP-IPV-Hep B-Hib, Pneumococcal, MMR, Haemophilus influenza type B, and Polio.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#77

Flu Vaccination
(03-17-2020, 11:57 AM)SYZ Wrote: Anti-vaxxers should only be allowed to have the eventual COVID-19 vaccine if they agree to also have their
children vaccinated against DTaP-IPV-Hep B-Hib, Pneumococcal, MMR, Haemophilus influenza type B, and Polio.
They should NOT be allowed to get the vaccine. They should be isolated and televised as they die. Pour les encourager les autres.
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#78

Flu Vaccination
(03-17-2020, 11:57 AM)SYZ Wrote: Anti-vaxxers should only be allowed to have the eventual COVID-19 vaccine if they agree to also have their children vaccinated against DTaP-IPV-Hep B-Hib, Pneumococcal, MMR, Haemophilus influenza type B, and Polio.

I don't agree with one syllable of the diarrhoea you've shat out.

I've known people that are as you would unceremoniously label them were (or perhaps still are) "anti vaxxers". I can tell you 99% of it is fear of the healthcare system not "conscientious objection". Also I've never met anyone who's against vaccination who actually believes there's some government conspiracy and that it does more harm than good - no one.

If people that are against vaccination show up to be vaccinated the best possible thing we can do is welcome them and make sure they feel comfortable and have a positive healthcare experience.
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#79

Flu Vaccination
(03-17-2020, 12:31 PM)Aractus Wrote: Also I've never met anyone who's against vaccination who actually believes there's some government conspiracy and that it does more harm than good - no one.

You need to get out more often.
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#80

Flu Vaccination
I'm not saying there aren't people like that, but I know first-hand people that are not. The idea of punishing people for being, in some cases justifiably, fearful of the healthcare sector is just wrong.
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#81

Flu Vaccination
(03-17-2020, 12:48 PM)Aractus Wrote: I'm not saying there aren't people like that, but I know first-hand people that are not. The idea of punishing people for being, in some cases justifiably, fearful of the healthcare sector is just wrong.

I'd shove a hot poker up their ass to get them to stop putting children in danger.
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#82

Flu Vaccination
(03-17-2020, 12:48 PM)Aractus Wrote: I'm not saying there aren't people like that, but I know first-hand people that are not. The idea of punishing people for being, in some cases justifiably, fearful of the healthcare sector is just wrong.

You need to come to the US.  There are loads of them here.  We have a huge ignorant population that has no regard for education or educated people and scientists are evil to them.  Maybe when grandma and their elderly relatives die from the Covid-19 virus, maybe they'll think a little about the value of vaccinations.  

Without modern healthcare millions would be dead.  I would have died in childbirth without modern healthcare.  I embrace it.
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#83

Flu Vaccination
(03-17-2020, 01:10 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: I'd shove a hot poker up their ass to get them to stop putting children in danger.

Do you say the same thing about parents who allow their children to compete in equestrian events? What about other risky activities like rock climbing, hiking, driving. Do you think it's immoral for parents to drive their children around in their car? How about uncontacted peoples - like the North Sentinelese, are you going to go over to their island and force them to take vaccines? Do you think they're immoral for not knowing about modern medicine?

In terms of something like the measles let's say - we start out our lives un-vaccinated. We are at risk through no fault of our own. To reduce the risk we need to take an artificial medical intervention. No one should be forced to take a vaccine against their will, nor should parents be forced to give their children medical interventions they haven't consented to. Of course there are limits to this - at a certain age children should be free make their own decisions about medication and health.  

If you're not reaching immunisation target levels (which we are reaching as it is in Australia) then the solution is to invest in targeting the people falling through the gaps by explaining the need, and making sure that the vaccinations are available and delivered in ways that are appropriate. For example, it is not good enough to simply have one day a year where kids can get the jab at school. What if they're sick? What if they're travelling? What if they've just moved from another location where the vaccination day is different? What if they're suspended from school? What if they can't take a vaccine at that time due to medical reasons? The vast majority of cases in Australia where children have gone un-vaccinated are healthcare clients that fell through the gaps, often the parents were unaware they'd missed a vaccine. You don't solve that by belittling the parents for "not knowing".

And as long as you have sufficient numbers of people getting vaccinated for herd immunity, it's a waste of resources to try and vaccinate every last un-vaccinated child as it makes a negligible difference. With herd immunity in place, there are actually more important things for the parents of the un-vaccinated children to have to worry about.

(03-17-2020, 03:16 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: You need to come to the US.  There are loads of them here.  We have a huge ignorant population that has no regard for education or educated people and scientists are evil to them.  Maybe when grandma and their elderly relatives die from the Covid-19 virus, maybe they'll think a little about the value of vaccinations.  

No there aren't. There's a small vocal minority. They're completely irrelevant. You don't need them for herd immunity.

Plus you should read what I said - what I said was the most anti-vaxxer types I've encountered do not believe it's a government conspiracy - what they actually believe ranges from: 1. they are afraid of the healthcare system for whatever reason - often they've had negative healthcare experiences, or 2. they don't realise that measles or whooping cough is deadly (and often their first-hand experiences with those illnesses will embolden their beliefs), or 3. they don't think vaccinations do anything. Number three is the rarest - 99% of the time they're just people that need convincing but are not yet convinced in the value of vaccination, and most of the time it's out of fear. There's an excellent article here written by a man who's wife was like that. He makes that point that almost everyone has an irrational fear - a phobia - about something. People's fears need to be taken seriously, even if they are irrational. When I was in primary school there was a kid that wore a helmet all the time, because he had an irrational fear of falling. And as is mentioned in that article, simply telling people who have a fear of vaccinations that "everyone knows they're safe" is illogical because that has been said literally about everything that we later found out was not safe. Here's an example:

[Image: CAalabb.jpg]

That's a scene in the Wizard of Oz showing Judy Garland, Ray Bolger, and Bert Lahr all covered in the widely-used perfectly safe completely natural substance used here as faux-snow, asbestos.

Quote:Without modern healthcare millions would be dead.  I would have died in childbirth without modern healthcare.  I embrace it.

Right, but everyone has the right to engage with the medications and treatments they want and refuse medications they don't want. If a doctor wants to prescribe you with codeine for long-term chronic pain management, you can say no. It's a perfectly acceptable choice. There are non-pharmaceutical ways that are effective at managing chronic pain. Or you can say you want a non-opioid medication. Or howabout in the 1960's when doctors would regularly treat bipolar or autism with electric shock therapy? Do you think it's acceptable that some parents said "no thanks"? Now I'm not saying that refusing to vaccinate children is "acceptable" - but there isn't an alternative choice for people to take other than "no, thank-you". Thus it's a necessary option. Now in saying that, once again, the goal should be to get as many children immunised as possible, and to ensure the rate is high enough for effective herd immunity. What I would encourage any person who holds "anti-vax" beliefs to do is to make an appointment with their doctor to discuss it. And really it's the GP's that should be the ones that are chasing up un-vaccinated children in any case.
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#84

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 03:55 AM)Aractus Wrote: There's a small vocal minority. They're completely irrelevant. You don't need them for herd immunity.

No it's NOT a small minority!   It incompasses new age hippy types, some affluent folks who somehow think they're special people.   Vegans, religious nuts  (of which the US has plenty)  government conspiracy folks, gun nuts and just plain stupid people which the US also has an abundance of. 

This information is from the Centers for Disease Control here in the US. 

Quote:PP ercent of children aged 19-35 months receiving vaccinations for:
  • Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis (4+ doses DTP, DT, or DTaP): 83.2%
  • Polio (3+ doses): 92.7%
  • Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR) (1+ doses): 91.5%
  • Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) (primary series + booster dose): 80.7%
  • Hepatitis B (Hep B) (3+ doses): 91.4%
  • Chickenpox (Varicella) (1+ doses): 91.0%
  • Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV) (4+ doses): 82.4%
  • Combined 7-vaccine series: 70.4%

You'll notice that for Diptheria, tetanum, Pertussis it's 83.2%  This means that almost 17% of kids aren't innoculated.  Look at the 7-vaccine series.  It's 70.4% .  This means that about 30% haven't  gotten that series of shots. That's not a small minority.  If it was 2% I'd call it a small minority...... but 10, 17 or 30% is not a small minority in my book.
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#85

Flu Vaccination
(03-17-2020, 11:57 AM)SYZ Wrote: Anti-vaxxers should only be allowed to have the eventual COVID-19 vaccine if they agree to also have their
children vaccinated against DTaP-IPV-Hep B-Hib, Pneumococcal, MMR, Haemophilus influenza type B, and Polio.

I don't think polio is given anymore.  I could be wrong.  My daughter is up to date and never had it. I'm 45, up to date, and never had it.
Maybe it's different in different parts of the world.
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#86

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 05:06 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote: You'll notice that for Diptheria, tetanum, Pertussis it's 83.2%  This means that almost 17% of kids aren't innoculated.  Look at the 7-vaccine series.  It's 70.4% .  This means that about 30% haven't  gotten that series of shots. That's not a small minority.  If it was 2% I'd call it a small minority...... but 10, 17 or 30% is not a small minority in my book.

And like I said before, you'll find the vast majority of that 17% are people who missed immunisations, and many haven't realised it. That's not the "refusal rate". The refusal rate is just a smaller proportion of that. It's made up of three groups of parents: 1. parents that are refusing to vaccinate, 2. parents that have missed vaccinations unintentionally, 3. parents that are "hesitant" (the vast majority will vaccinate once their concerns are overcome, that's what the data shows).

Look many people for example don't want an unknown stranger in a school vaccinating their child, they want their GP to do it and be present in the room when it happens. That's not a onerous or particularly strange demand at all.
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#87

Flu Vaccination
As invariably he does, Aractus again uses the tired old false equivalence argument.  He seems to not
comprehend the criticality of childhood immunisations, in order for self-protection, as well as guaranteeing
herd immunity.  His thinking sounds very close to that of the ignorant, selfish anti-vaxxers.

Aractus Wrote:Do you say the same thing about parents who allow their children to compete in equestrian events?
What about other risky activities like rock climbing, hiking, driving. Do you think it's immoral for parents to drive their
children around in their car? How about uncontacted peoples - like the North Sentinelese, are you going to go over to
their island and force them to take vaccines? Do you think they're immoral for not knowing about modern medicine?

And as his usual wont, he attempts to reinforce his argument with a rambling, irrelevant straw man; in
this case the Sentinelese people who live on a tiny isolated island in the Bay of Bengal.  During a 2014
circumnavigation researchers recorded six females, seven males—all apparently under 40 years old—and
three children younger than four.

And his claim that "no one should be forced to take a vaccine against their will, nor should parents be
forced to give their children medical interventions they haven't consented to" reflects exactly the stated
viewpoint of the anti-vaxxers.  Of course compulsory immunisation legislation should be introduced, as
some parents are simply too uneducated or stubborn to get their children—even from their increased
vulnerability as neonatals—properly vaccinated.  And they're also selfishly single-minded in their wilful
rebuttal of the very protection their own kids are (hopefully) getting from herd immunity.

And to introduce my own straw man, what about the Jehovah’s Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions
on religious grounds?   Section 24 of the Victorian Human Tissue Act 1982 enacts that a medical practitioner
who gives a child a blood transfusion  against  the  express  wishes  of  the  parent  is  not  committing a  
criminal  offence.    The  blood transfusion must be treatment for a condition the child has and without
the transfusion the child is likely to die.  

Unfortunately, Aractus's notions of medicine are truly disturbing for an apparently well-educated individual.
I have no medical qualifications in order to form an opinion on vaccination, other than relying in turn on the
opinions of duly qualified medical practitioners.  Unless Aractus can show us some sort of personal medical
qualifications, then anything he writes needs to be treated merely as his personal opinion—a lot of it erroneous,
and often a distortion of the accepted facts.
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#88

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 05:44 AM)Aractus Wrote:  the vast majority of that 17% are people who missed immunisations, and many haven't realised it.

What planet are you living on.  Parents are informed of childhood scheduled immunization programs when the baby is born.  The information is give out to new parents in every language.  When a child starts school notifications are sent home to parents.  It's not like the parents never hear a word about it after their child is born.
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#89

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 05:30 AM)Aroura Wrote: I don't think polio is given anymore.  I could be wrong.  My daughter is up to date and never had it. I'm 45, up to date, and never had it.
Maybe it's different in different parts of the world.

Yep... here in Australia: Inactivated poliovirus (IPV)–containing vaccine is recommended
for infants and children in a 4-dose schedule at 2, 4 and 6 months and 4 years of age.
IPV-containing vaccine is recommended in a 3-dose primary schedule for adolescents and
adults who have never received polio vaccine.

I can only assume that Aractus chose not to get the polio vaccination, as he tends to lean
towards non-vaccination—judging by his earlier comments here about not forcing people to
have the COVID-19 vaccine when it eventually arrives here.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#90

Flu Vaccination
None of what I said is an "anti-vaxxer" message, you're just a stupid ignorant cunt who can't see past the fact that people have the right to self determination and to their healthcare. Forcing treatments on patients against their will, of any kind, always does more harm than good. It's in the evidence-based literature. It can lead to unintended consequences, such as people being punished for their children being unvaccinated even when due to genuine medical reasons. For example cancer patients - they can't have a vaccine. People are fearful of the heathcare sector, and giving them bad experiences just re-enforces that fear and makes it less likely that they will seek help when they, and their children, actually need it. It's not worth vaccinating children against the wishes of their parents if it means you've alienated those people and they won't get medical treatment when necessary.

The correct strategy to get kids immunised is to provide every opportunity, be flexible in delivery. Lots of people don't like the MMR vaccine simply because it's so potent for example, they'd prefer it split into two separate vaccinations taken a few months apart. How is that an unreasonable demand? It isn't. Yet as it is right now that's not an option for parents in Australia. Guess what happens in Australia if a parent says to their doctor "I want a single non-combined measles vaccine given to my child"? The answer is "no". Same in the UK. And before you claim that I'm inventing a scenario: yes you can get MMR as a split vaccination in some countries, like Ireland and France, once again it's not that onerous of a demand really. There are some parents in the UK that will actually travel to get MMR in the split vaccinations for their children, that should tell you that flexibility in delivery is not an unreasonable demand especially when there's clear evidence that people who refuse MMR will accept a split vaccine schedule. It happened a lot back when Wakefield published his fraudulent paper - especially before it was retracted.
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#91

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 05:44 AM)Aractus Wrote: ...many people for example don't want an unknown stranger in a school vaccinating their child, they want their GP to do it and be present in the room when it happens. That's not a onerous or particularly strange demand at all.

Can you cite the data that supports this claim?    I couldn't find anything related specifically to this sort of
scenario, and I've personally never heard any parent voice this opinion regarding childhood vaccinations.

It's becoming more than obvious you have very little understanding of historic Australian immunisation
programs, which probably results from your young age—and not having grown up when pertussis, polio,
diphtheria, tuberculosis, rubella, etc were rampant in this country.

Aractus Wrote:you're just a stupid ignorant cunt...

Oh dear. Is this sort of crude ad hominem  really the best argument this bloke can put forward?
Although I guess it reinforces my earlier claims of the paucity and errancy of his claims LOL.
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#92

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 06:17 AM)SYZ Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 05:44 AM)Aractus Wrote: ...many people for example don't want an unknown stranger in a school vaccinating their child, they want their GP to do it and be present in the room when it happens. That's not a onerous or particularly strange demand at all.

Can you cite the data that supports this claim?    I couldn't find anything related specifically to this sort of scenario, and I've personally never heard any parent voice this opinion regarding childhood vaccinations.

It's becoming more than obvious you have very little understanding of historic Australian immunisation programs, which probably results from your young age—and not having grown up when pertussis, polio, diphtheria, tuberculosis, rubella, etc were rampant in this country.

Well it's mentioned right here for example, if you'd bothered to read that page. A man marries an anti-vaxxer with a daughter. Not his daughter her daughter. His wife had an irrational fear (as I talked about before) and he correctly notes lots of people have irrational fears. You get to the end of the article and:

"And then, last week, her daughter asked if she would be getting shots this year.

"'Not with your classmates,' my wife said. 'But yes, it's time. We'll schedule an appointment with our new family doctor.'

"I didn't have to say anything."

Now that's perfectly reasonable. Anyone can do that in Australia, that's fine, but my point is people should always be given options. Flexibility.

As for the split MMR-vaccines available in parts of Europe: how do you think healthcare clients react when they're told they can't have something that they find out is available in other countries? Just that itself is damaging.

Australia has a high immunisation rate, there's no crisis at all. What you don't understand though is that if you want to maintain and improve it, is that you need to educate people, be more flexible with the delivery, and allow people options. You can't just expect people to appreciate the value by relying on the "conventional wisdom" of the age.
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#93

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 06:09 AM)Aractus Wrote: None of what I said is an "anti-vaxxer" message, you're just a stupid ignorant cunt who can't see past the fact that people have the right to self determination and to their healthcare. Forcing treatments on patients against their will, of any kind, always does more harm than good. It's in the evidence-based literature. It can lead to unintended consequences, such as people being punished for their children being unvaccinated even when due to genuine medical reasons. For example cancer patients - they can't have a vaccine. People are fearful of the heathcare sector, and giving them bad experiences just re-enforces that fear and makes it less likely that they will seek help when they, and their children, actually need it. It's not worth vaccinating children against the wishes of their parents if it means you've alienated those people and they won't get medical treatment when necessary.

The correct strategy to get kids immunised is to provide every opportunity, be flexible in delivery. Lots of people don't like the MMR vaccine simply because it's so potent for example, they'd prefer it split into two separate vaccinations taken a few months apart. How is that an unreasonable demand? It isn't. Yet as it is right now that's not an option for parents in Australia. Guess what happens in Australia if a parent says to their doctor "I want a single non-combined measles vaccine given to my child"? The answer is "no". Same in the UK. And before you claim that I'm inventing a scenario: yes you can get MMR as a split vaccination in some countries, like Ireland and France, once again it's not that onerous of a demand really. There are some parents in the UK that will actually travel to get MMR in the split vaccinations for their children, that should tell you that flexibility in delivery is not an unreasonable demand especially when there's clear evidence that people who refuse MMR will accept a split vaccine schedule. It happened a lot back when Wakefield published his fraudulent paper - especially before it was retracted.

And you appear to be the stupid cunt who doesn't understand that the rest of us should not be forced against our will to associate with those who refuse vaccinations. Deadpan Coffee Drinker 

No vaccination?  No school for you.
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
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#94

Flu Vaccination
@SYZ for peer-review data, this study found the following:

1: "Vaccine refusal (rejection of all vaccines) is at the extreme end, whereas vaccine-hesitant individuals are a more heterogeneous group, with some opting to fully vaccinate despite substantial concerns while others are more selective.1 People may also change their attitudes and positions over time."

2: "Most parents of incompletely vaccinated children in Australia do not disagree with immunisation, but have been unable to overcome a range of logistic and access barriers.20 It follows that measures to improve access to services, assist families challenged by logistic issues, and minimise missed opportunities to vaccinate are the most important means to raise levels of complete immunisation. Measures shown to be effective, both overseas and in Australia, include client reminder and recall systems, incentives, enforcing childcare entry vaccination requirements, audit and feedback of health professionals, opportunistic vaccination in primary,secondary and tertiary care, catch-up plans, standing orders, home visiting, and minimising out-of-pocket expenses to access services and vaccines.21,22"

3: "Based on the above considerations, we believe that the stated intent of No Jab, No Pay and of state-based No Jab,No Play legislation—to target vaccine refusal and, in turn, the spread of vaccine-preventable diseases—may prove to be misplaced for two reasons. First, vaccine refusal is the least important of the three factors (refusal,hesitancy and barriers to access) contributing to lower vaccine coverage. Second, there is limited evidence that monetary sanctions are effective in this context of families receiving government assistance,21 among whom the potential for unintended impacts on the health and welfare of children may be greatest. Unintended adverse impacts are arguably even more likely from the highly restrictive Victorian legislation reducing access to appropriate early childhood education."

4: "Vaccine refusal is only one of a range of factors relevant to further improvements in vaccine coverage and disease control.The greatest yield is likely to come from first implementing measures already shown to be effective in improving accessibility and minimising logistic barriers to vaccination, and second, from well structured research and evaluation of new interventions to overcome vaccine refusal and hesitancy."

You're entitled to your bigoted opinions, but not to your own facts.
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#95

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 03:55 AM)Aractus Wrote: Do you say the same thing about parents who allow their children to compete in equestrian events? What about other risky activities like rock climbing, hiking, driving.

And none of these people will ever jeopardize the health of an immuno-compromized kid, just by being in the same room with them. When your choices for your kids can affect other peoples kids, you need to grow the fuck up and do the responsible thing.
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#96

Flu Vaccination
(03-18-2020, 06:17 AM)SYZ Wrote: Oh dear.  Is this sort of crude ad hominem  really the best argument this bloke can put forward?
Although I guess it reinforces my earlier claims of the paucity and errancy of his claims LOL.

Makes me wonder if he was born an asshole, took lessons, or both?
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