Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.

[EvieTheAvocado]

A creed requires having a set of beliefs to follow. Atheism, however, is either a mere absence of belief or it's the belief that gods are improbable or impossible. Even in this strongest sense of atheism... it's not a creed because a belief that something(s) doesn't (don't) exist doesn't amount to a creed.

Atheism is not a faith because a faith is religious belief without evidence. So even in the case where someone insists that a certain god is impossible without any evidence, that particular version of atheism is still not a faith because a faith refers to religious belief without evidence, not just any old belief without.

If we take out the indefinite article 'a' and refer to all those folks who say "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist"... first of all, this only applies to atheists who do indeed insert that a god is impossible without any evidence or argument for that. That is an argument from ignorance and that is a faith-statement but only if we consider faith to mean nothing more than "belief without evidence", even in a totally non-religious way. So it still wouldn't be a faith, or a creed, but such a particular atheist would be having faith in the sense of having a belief without evidence.

However (a) Most atheists are not like that (b) it still takes at least as much faith to believe that such a god exists, because even if there's no positive evidence for the possibility of certain gods, there's no positive evidence for the actuality of certain gods either © however rational a particular version of atheism is, there are plenty of other versions of atheism that are perfectly rational and to criticize one version is to say nothing of other versions.

[Sunflower]

Yeah Bill Maher explained this one a little while back.



Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position, like bald is a hairstyle, like off is a TV channel.

[Dancefortwo]

I always like it when Christians tell me that Christianity is  not a religion, "it's a relationship with Jesus"  and then they turn around and say atheism is a religion.  It's just fucking stupid.

[SYZ]

[glow=yellow,1,300]Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.[/glow]   

[abaris]

Atheism, however, is either a mere absence of belief or it's the belief that gods are improbable or impossible,

For me it's the former. I simply don't believe. That's all there is to it.

On a side note, I would love a thanks function. In the last hour I read a lot of posts I wanted to give thanks to and couldn't.

[Tartarus Sauce]

Woah, you guys are already going at it. Talking about atheism on an atheism forum and what not. Crazy.

[Free]

Religion is defined as:

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
2. a particular system of faith and worship.

Therefore, atheism is quite simply a lack of religion, hence, a lack of belief in any gods.

Therefore, how can atheism be a religion when it's very state references a lack thereof?

[no one]

So all those babies I sacrificed to the almighty Spaghetti Monster were in vain?

[Mathilda]

I always like it when Christians tell me that Christianity is  not a religion, "it's a relationship with Jesus"  and then they turn around and say atheism is a religion.  It's just fucking stupid.

It's a relationship with reality.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[glow=yellow,1,300]Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.[/glow]   

But ... "OFF" is my favorite TV channel!

[Cavebear]

I've always liked the "like bald is a hair color" myself. Being darn near bald myself, it suits me.

[Mark]

Regarding the OP, I wonder if skepticism too is not a creed by Evie's suggested standard.

[Bucky Ball]

It's always amusing to see religionists equating their positions of faith with atheism.
Doesn't say much for the respect they actually have for their own positions.
I always wonder if they really get what they're doing.

[Cavebear]

I always like it when Christians tell me that Christianity is  not a religion, "it's a relationship with Jesus"  and then they turn around and say atheism is a religion.   It's just fucking stupid.

Theists just MUST believe that "atheism" is a religion because they can't imagine a person without one.  It would diminish their initial supposition that all people must believe in some deity of some sort.  I suppose that is way they think we are Satanists of something.  They need a "something", so everyone else must, too. 

I once came across a theist who insisted I must believe in "something".  I made the mistake of admitting that we would all die sometime.  He said "AHA, you believe that we will all die".  I haven't quite figured out the :AHA" part out yet.

A best friend was a passenger in my car.  As I approached a traffic light I mentioned "stay green, stay green".  He interpreted that as a prayer.  I was shocked.  I spent nearly the rest of the day trying to explain to him that my desire that the random events of the universe would be in my favor was NOT a prayer. 

I should elaborate to say that he is a FORMER best friend... 

I'm tired of theists of any kind or degree...

[Cavebear]

I should mention that I consider ALL theisms  to be equally superstitious and moronic.  I have met people who assumed that I thought all other theisms but theirs' were superstitious and moronic.  I do or I don't (not sure how to parse that.). 

Theisms are all superstitious and moronic...  Just thought I should make that clear.

[Cavebear]

It's always amusing to see religionists equating their positions of faith with atheism.
Doesn't say much for the respect they actually have for their own positions.
I always wonder if they really get what they're doing.

I can't say they don't truly believe.  You can't really get into someone else's mind.  But they are convinced they can get into mine...

[Alan V]

Theists just MUST believe that "atheism" is a religion because they can't imagine a person without one.  It would diminish their initial supposition that all people must believe in some deity of some sort.  I suppose that is way they think we are Satanists of something.  They need a "something", so everyone else must, too.  

Yeah, a lot of Muslims think that since everyone worships something, they should worship what is really deserving of worship, i.e. God.  Of course, they are looking at this issue the way it was framed to sell them their specific belief system.  It usually doesn't occur to them that nothing is worthy of worship, even a human-created God-concept.

Also, many religious people make the same mistake about theism that they do about atheism.  Theism is not a religion either, it is a "yes" answer to the question of whether someone believes in a God or gods, just like atheism is a "no" answer.  Again, religious people are really looking at these issues through the lens of their specific religion.

[Cheerful Charlie]

Here in Texas, some theists claim atheism is a religion for political purposes. Creationism is banned in science classes due to it being teaching religion, which is constitutionally prohibited. So to attack evolution they equate evolution with atheism, and try to portray atheism as a religion. Thus claiming we must ban evolution as it is teaching 'religion', that is atheism. This is something that the cretinists have been doing for years now, decades even. It is an argument that has not worked well, but like many bad ideas, once loose on the world, it never completely goes away.

[Cavebear]

Theists just MUST believe that "atheism" is a religion because they can't imagine a person without one.  It would diminish their initial supposition that all people must believe in some deity of some sort.  I suppose that is way they think we are Satanists of something.  They need a "something", so everyone else must, too.  

Yeah, a lot of Muslims think that since everyone worships something, they should worship what is really deserving of worship, i.e. God.  Of course, they are looking at this issue the way it was framed to sell them their specific belief system.  It usually doesn't occur to them that nothing is worthy of worship, even a human-created God-concept.

Also, many religious people make the same mistake about theism that they do about atheism.  Theism is not a religion either, it is a "yes" answer to the question of whether someone believes in a God or gods, just like atheism is a "no" answer.  Again, religious people are really looking at these issues through the lens of their specific religion.

I'm interested in your idea that "Theism is not a religion either, it is a "yes" answer to the question of whether someone believes in a God or gods, just like atheism is a "no" answer."

I find it difficult to understand that any theism is not a religion".  Are you are getting at the idea that even if there was a deity no one could understand it, or is there more to that in your post?

[Bucky Ball]

It's always amusing to see religionists equating their positions of faith with atheism.
Doesn't say much for the respect they actually have for their own positions.
I always wonder if they really get what they're doing.

I can't say they don't truly believe.  You can't really get into someone else's mind.  But they are convinced they can get into mine...

I didn't say they don't believe. 
They *do* equate the value of WHAT they believe with non-belief, (despite also usually claiming to be morally superior), which is very strange for them to make the equivalence. They don't realize they are devaluing their own faith.

[Cavebear]

Here in Texas, some theists claim atheism is a religion for political purposes.  Creationism is banned in science classes due to it being teaching religion, which is constitutionally prohibited.  So to attack evolution they equate evolution with atheism, and try to portray atheism as a religion.  Thus claiming we must ban evolution as it is teaching 'religion', that is atheism.  This is something that the cretinists have been doing for years now, decades even.  It is an argument that has not worked well, but like many bad ideas, once loose on the world, it never completely goes away.

 

I understand that theists often try to claim that atheism is a religion socially and politically.   That gives them some equivalency in their minds religiously.  And I agree that political demands encourage even otherwise intelligent people  to act religiously to appeal to the masses.

Oh, just re-read the post a 3rd time,  I think I understand now.  Claiming evolution as a religious doctrine makes it a freedom of religion issue.

Thank you.

[Alan V]

I'm interested in your idea that "Theism is not a religion either, it is a "yes" answer to the question of whether someone believes in a God or gods, just like atheism is a "no" answer."

I find it difficult to understand that any theism is not a religion.  Are you are getting at the idea that even if there was a deity no one could understand it, or is there more to that in your post?

According to Google, "theism" is the "belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures." In other words, by it's most general definition, the word "theism" covers a range of god-beliefs which are not limited to any one particular religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, and so on are all religions. "Religion" is defined as "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. A particular system of faith and worship." Religions include rituals, doctrines, holy books, holy places, and so on -- none of which atheism has.

So although theism and atheism are opposites, since so many religious people think of theism through the lens of their own particular religions, they often consider atheism in the same category as their religion -- as a belief-system rather than something more generalized.

[Cavebear]

I'm interested in your idea that "Theism is not a religion either, it is a "yes" answer to the question of whether someone believes in a God or gods, just like atheism is a "no" answer."

I find it difficult to understand that any theism is not a religion.  Are you are getting at the idea that even if there was a deity no one could understand it, or is there more to that in your post?

According to Google, "theism" is the "belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures."  In other words, by it's most general definition, the word "theism" covers a range of god-beliefs which are not limited to any one particular religion.  Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, and so on are all religions.  "Religion" is defined as "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.  A particular system of faith and worship."  Religions include rituals, doctrines, holy books, holy places, and so on -- none of which atheism has.

So although theism and atheism are opposites, since so many religious people think of theism through the lens of their own religion, they often consider atheism in the same category as religion, as a belief-system or a worldview.

I do not limit my definition of "theism" to a single god, a personal god, or an "uninvolved" god.  I consider "theism" to be any belief in a non-provable power with any degree of intent, be it be adhered to by one person or many, or of any degree of super or supra natural power.

A lack of such belief is "atheism".

[mordant]

So although theism and atheism are opposites, since so many religious people think of theism through the lens of their own particular religions, they often consider atheism in the same category as their religion -- as a belief-system rather than something more generalized.

It is just projection, and completely to be expected. If you are acclimated to the notion that things are to be believed or disbelieved, rather than validated or invalidated, then you tend to see everything through that lens. Besides, to acknowledge that lack of belief might be rational and considered, is to open yourself up to the possibility that belief might be irrational and ill-considered. That is a place that believers are socialized not to go.

That is why they must see atheists as wrong-believers, and as other unjustified things like hateful, rebellious, dishonest, devious, licentious, etc. If believers are RIGHTeous, then the unbelievers must be WRONGeous.

[Cavebear]

So although theism and atheism are opposites, since so many religious people think of theism through the lens of their own particular religions, they often consider atheism in the same category as their religion -- as a belief-system rather than something more generalized.

It is just projection, and completely to be expected. If you are acclimated to the notion that things are to be believed or disbelieved, rather than validated or invalidated, then you tend to see everything through that lens. Besides, to acknowledge that lack of belief might be rational and considered, is to open yourself up to the possibility that belief might be irrational and ill-considered. That is a place that believers are socialized not to go.

That is why they must see atheists as wrong-believers, and as other unjustified things like hateful, rebellious, dishonest, devious, licentious, etc. If believers are RIGHTeous, then the unbelievers must be WRONGeous.

I really liked the comparison between "believed or disbelieved, rather than validated or invalidated".  That was very good.  I'll try to remember that.