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Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
#26

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-30-2018, 10:34 PM)no one Wrote: So all those babies I sacrificed to the almighty Spaghetti Monster were in vain?

Not at all, assuming the  sacrifices were followed by a barbeque and a keg  Angel
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#27

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
Regardless of all the excellent arguments proving that atheism is not a religion, when you run them by theists they mostly go in one ear and out the other.  Dodgy
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#28

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
*channels* If you look at Aristotle, Aquinas and Spinoza you will find the notion of atheism silly as it denies the greatness of human imagination Big Grin
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#29

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-16-2019, 04:18 PM)LastPoet Wrote: *channels* If you look at Aristotle, Aquinas and Spinoza you will find the notion of atheism silly as it denies the greatness of human imagination Big Grin

Atheism has nothing to do with imagination nor the disparagement or denial thereof. It is just lacking any beliefs in any deities. And in my observation, theism is where the failure of imagination lies. "We don't know or understand, therefore god" is presuppositionalist in the extreme. "We don't know, therefore we don't know" actually gives you the full palate of possibilities for the unknown. It doesn't foreclose it with asserted "truth".
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#30

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-16-2019, 11:21 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: Regardless of all the excellent arguments proving that atheism is not a religion, when you run them by theists they mostly go in one ear and out the other.  Dodgy

 Possibly due to the lack of grey matter in between. Tongue
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#31

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-16-2019, 07:17 PM)mordant Wrote:
(09-16-2019, 04:18 PM)LastPoet Wrote: *channels* If you look at Aristotle, Aquinas and Spinoza you will find the notion of atheism silly as it denies the greatness of human imagination Big Grin

Atheism has nothing to do with imagination nor the disparagement or denial thereof. It is just lacking any beliefs in any deities. And in my observation, theism is where the failure of imagination lies. "We don't know or understand, therefore god" is presuppositionalist in the extreme. "We don't know, therefore we don't know" actually gives you the full palate of possibilities for the unknown. It doesn't foreclose it with asserted "truth".

"presuppositionalist".  Now THERE is a word you don't see every day.   Smile
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#32

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-17-2019, 06:07 AM)grympy Wrote:
(09-16-2019, 11:21 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: Regardless of all the excellent arguments proving that atheism is not a religion, when you run them by theists they mostly go in one ear and out the other.  Dodgy

Possibly due to the lack of grey matter in between. Tongue

Yeah because there is not much brain between the ears?  Just a tube going straight through.  I've often thought that if you tapped a theist's head, you would get an echo...
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#33

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-17-2019, 06:36 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Yeah because there is not much brain between the ears?  Just a tube going straight through.  I've often thought that if you tapped a theist's head, you would get an echo...

It seems that way. In my observation and experience though, theists are no smarter nor dumber than anyone else in terms of absolute potential / ability. What they conjure for me is the old public service announcement concerning education, "a brain is a terrible thing to waste".

What theists are, is victims of rigid and/or limited thinking habits and the learned helplessness that goes with it.

In my salad days as an evangelical, most of science was simply dead to me, it was stuff you did not contemplate. It was clearly wrong, somehow, to the extent it "contradicted" scripture. As a kid, I would watch the endless all-day coverage of every Gemini and Apollo launch, as space ships did not contradict the Bible. But I was totally closed off to evolution because "everyone knows" god created the first humans a few thousand years ago. I indulged my public school teachers about dinosaurs and so forth, smug in the knowledge that they were sadly deluded. I assumed my teachers BELIEVED wrongly; I didn't understand that science isn't about belief, but about facts.

What can I say. As a child, you assume that your parents know what they are talking about, that a book revered by billions can't be wrong, and eventually, you realize you've been duped.

I envy people born with such fantastic bullshit filters and spines that they are capable, almost from the cradle, of laughing all the authority figures in their lives to scorn, and damn the consequences. I imagine a few percent of humans are like that. Most of us, being hypersocial creatures, fear the implied threat of ostracism and ridicule, at least as children, and we go along to get along. And if the faith community is all the belonging you've ever known, quite a lot of those people continue on into adulthood, perpetuating the whole thing, being as that's the path of least resistance in life. At least until some sufficient cognitive dissonance enters their lives, and it becomes less painful to face reality than to deny it.
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#34

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
Maybe there aught to be a Church of Atheism (Reformed). After all, the Christians are steaming ahead with "religious freedom" laws. It is legal to fire gays for being gays, and only a bona fide religious figure can officiate at weddings. No atheists allowed! So if there was an atheist church one could join online as an official member of an Atheist Church, all these wonderful religous freedom laws would apply to members of The Church of Atheism (Reformed). You could fire somebody for being a Christian pest upsetting the work place for example. A member in good standing with the Church of Atheism (Reformed) could officially marry people (even gay marriages) just as official as the local Baptist pastor.

There is already a Czech Republic Church Of Militant Atheism formed with such ideas in mind. For the religious freedom the Christians all claim to want, why shouldn't Atheists belly up to that bar also?

http://www.militantatheism.net/
...
"Why Church?
Because Churches have privileged position in many countries, which gives preferential treatment to theists compared to atheists.
Why shouldn't have atheists the same position?"
...


And if Atheism is considered a religion, it is the only true religion!
Why does the porridge bird lays his eggs in the air?

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#35

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-17-2019, 06:22 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Maybe there aught to be a Church of Atheism (Reformed). 

More and more empty churches are available.   hobo
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#36

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-16-2019, 04:18 PM)LastPoet Wrote: *channels* If you look at Aristotle, Aquinas and Spinoza you will find the notion of atheism silly as it denies the greatness of human imagination Big Grin

Perhaps next time use your own imagination and add your own thoughts. Perhaps even have a go at proving your claims . The above post  presents some claims  but is not an argument.   Facepalm
 
 ALL that  fatuous sentence  shows  [ if true] is that great minds have weak spots, can also be truly ignorant ,and simply mistaken .  I think this is a classic as example of "
appeal to authority" IE claiming a thing is true simply because of who made the claim, rather than being true in and of itself . This has not been proved to be the case.
.
  Atheism is only a disbelief in gods. Most atheists I know support science . A great many scientists are also atheists.   Science  is THE area which allows  the human imagination complete freedom. 

If anything ,it is believers who stifle imagination  because they are anti science .Devout Christians will accept science as long a it does not contradict THEIR perception of doctrine; EG fundamentalists reject evolution, which is simply mainstream science. Because such people lack the wit grasp Genesis especially is allegory and mythology.  

 Recently a Catholic troglodyte banned Harry Potter books at his  school because he thinks they are demonic.  

The evangelicals I've met all have some things in common; a closed mind as well as being anti intellectual and anti science. A closed mind is the very definition of a lack of imagination.
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#37

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-17-2019, 10:49 PM)grympy Wrote:
(09-16-2019, 04:18 PM)LastPoet Wrote: *channels* If you look at Aristotle, Aquinas and Spinoza you will find the notion of atheism silly as it denies the greatness of human imagination Big Grin

Perhaps next time use your own imagination and add your own thoughts. Perhaps even have a go at proving your claims . The above post  presents some claims  but is not an argument.   Facepalm
 
 ALL that  fatuous sentence  shows  [ if true] is that great minds have weak spots,  can also be truly ignorant ,and simply mistaken .  I think this is a classic as example of  "
appeal to authority"  IE claiming a thing is true simply because of who made the claim, rather  than being true in and of itself . This has not been proved to be the case.
.
  Atheism is only a disbelief in gods. Most atheists I know support science . A great many scientists are also atheists.   Science  is THE area which allows  the human imagination complete freedom. 

If anything ,it is believers who stifle imagination  because they are anti science .Devout Christians will accept science as long a it does not contradict THEIR perception of doctrine; EG fundamentalists reject evolution, which is simply mainstream science. Because such people lack the wit grasp Genesis especially is allegory and mythology.  

 Recently a Catholic troglodyte banned Harry Potter books at his  school because he thinks they are demonic.  

The evangelicals I've met all have some things in common; a closed mind as well as being anti intellectual and anti science. A closed mind is the very definition of a lack of imagination.

Heh, there is the smilie and the *channels* at the start of my post. By Poe's law, my sarcasm should've been obvious. Oh well.
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#38

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
Some theists like to play semantics games in order to get atheists to admit that they adhere to a belief, as though the word is somehow synonymous with religious faith.

Atheism

The definition, after all, does state this:
Quote:atheism[ ey-thee-iz-uh m ]
noun
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
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#39

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-18-2019, 11:37 AM)Phaedrus Wrote: Some theists like to play semantics games in order to get atheists to admit that they adhere to a belief, as though the word is somehow synonymous with religious faith.

Atheism

The definition, after all, does state this:
Quote:atheism[ ey-thee-iz-uh m ]
noun
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

An aunt of mine worked on the Websters Third New International Dictionary and she used to tell me about the raging arguments that erupted about definitions of beliefs.  And she also explained that dictionaries were not judges of correct or incorrect definitions but rather how words were commonly used.

So lets not try to use any dictionary as an authority of accuracy, OK?  I agree without debate that "atheism" is hard to define and there are variations of the meaning.

Let's accept the simplest.  That "atheism" means "without theism".  "a" from the greek "without" and "theism", meaning a belief in a "deity" of any sort.  I have no believe in any deity, therefore I am an "atheist".  Having no belief in any deity, I have no belief in any or all. 

Personally, seeing no evidence for any or all deities means that I don't believe in any or all deities, so I consider them non-existent.  For what its worth, I also don't believe in unicorns or Martians.  I don't get much flak about that, though.
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#40

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-17-2019, 06:36 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-17-2019, 06:07 AM)grympy Wrote:
(09-16-2019, 11:21 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: Regardless of all the excellent arguments proving that atheism is not a religion, when you run them by theists they mostly go in one ear and out the other.  Dodgy

Possibly due to the lack of grey matter in between. Tongue

Yeah because there is not much brain between the ears?  Just a tube going straight through.  I've often thought that if you tapped a theist's head, you would get an echo...

Hmm....definitely evidence of vacancy of the cranium.  Consider
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#41

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-17-2019, 06:22 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Maybe there aught to be a Church of Atheism (Reformed).  After all, the Christians are steaming ahead with "religious freedom" laws.  It is legal to fire gays for being gays, and only a bona fide religious figure can officiate at weddings.  No atheists allowed!  So if there was an atheist church one could join online as an official member of an Atheist Church, all these wonderful religous freedom laws would apply to members of The Church of Atheism (Reformed).  You could fire somebody for being a Christian pest upsetting the work place for example.  A member in good standing with the Church of Atheism (Reformed) could officially marry people (even gay marriages) just as official as the local Baptist pastor.

There is already a Czech Republic Church Of Militant Atheism formed with such ideas in mind.  For the religious freedom the Christians all claim to want, why shouldn't Atheists belly up to that bar also?

http://www.militantatheism.net/
...
"Why Church?
Because Churches have privileged position in many countries, which gives preferential treatment to theists compared to atheists.
Why shouldn't have atheists the same position?"
...


And if Atheism is considered a religion, it is the only true religion!

There have been "Atheist Churches" before.  I even wrote a short "bible" for one decades ago (long lost).  I think there was a Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, too.  Its not worth the effort.  Trying to write an "atheist bible" is mind-bendingly insane.  You either end up writing a science primer, or twist yourself in knots trying not to refer to a non-creator.  Don't try it, it's just painful.  And I'm a fairly creative writer...
I just believe in one less deity than most people.
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#42

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-18-2019, 12:26 PM)Cavebear Wrote: There have been "Atheist Churches" before.  I even wrote a short "bible" for one decades ago (long lost).  I think there was a Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, too.  Its not worth the effort.  Trying to write an "atheist bible" is mind-bendingly insane.  You either end up writing a science primer, or twist yourself in knots trying not to refer to a non-creator.  Don't try it, it's just painful.  And I'm a fairly creative writer...

It's already been done:

[Image: 51vO3ZO8MuL._SX345_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg]
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#43

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-18-2019, 11:37 AM)Phaedrus Wrote: Some theists like to play semantics games in order to get atheists to admit that they adhere to a belief, as though the word is somehow synonymous with religious faith.

Atheism

The definition, after all, does state this:
Quote:atheism[ ey-thee-iz-uh m ]
noun
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

There is a big difference between justified belief and unjustified belief.  Belief based on hard evidence and belief that rests on no evidence at all and ignores problems that develop from unsupported claims.  Since the claims for God soon develop various deep problems, free will vs omniscience, problem of evil vs omnipotence  and more, religious belief in God is obviously not justified.  What atheists do is rely on justified beliefs, not religious faith, unjustified and even falsified by noticing the problems of God that are directly and reliably derived from religious claims made about God.

Religious belief and non-religious belief are not equivalent.
Why does the porridge bird lays his eggs in the air?

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#44

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
This book seems to be a mere collection of quotes about religion and belief from numerous sources. While admirable, it is not a systematic argument for atheism or anything like that.
Why does the porridge bird lays his eggs in the air?

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#45

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
I wonder if theists think not believing in Leprechauns is a creed or faith.  If it is then Christians who don't believe in Leprechauns are a member of two different creeds and faiths. Isn't that blasphemous, or something?   I have yet to find a "Leprechauns Don't Exist" church though.
                                                         T4618
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#46

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-18-2019, 02:49 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: I wonder if theists think not believing in Leprechauns is a creed or faith.  If it is then Christians who don't believe in Leprechauns are a member of two different creeds and faiths. Isn't that blasphemous, or something?   I have yet to find a "Leprechauns Don't Exist" church though.

Whaaaa? Then who are the two little guys with red pointy hats in my neighbor's garden?
[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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#47

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-18-2019, 03:29 PM)Dom Wrote:
(09-18-2019, 02:49 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: I wonder if theists think not believing in Leprechauns is a creed or faith.  If it is then Christians who don't believe in Leprechauns are a member of two different creeds and faiths. Isn't that blasphemous, or something?   I have yet to find a "Leprechauns Don't Exist" church though.

Whaaaa? Then who are the two little guys with red pointy hats in my neighbor's garden?

You silly goose.  Those are most likely Gnomes.  I haven't seen a "Gnomes Don't Exist" church either.
                                                         T4618
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#48

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-18-2019, 02:49 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: I wonder if theists think not believing in Leprechauns is a creed or faith.  If it is then Christians who don't believe in Leprechauns are a member of two different creeds and faiths. Isn't that blasphemous, or something?   I have yet to find a "Leprechauns Don't Exist" church though.


I don't think that aLeprechaunists necessarily have a creed or faith, unless they have a belief that Leprechauns, fairies, elves, et all only exist in our stories because people needed them to explain stuff for which their natural science was deficient.  There are other reasons to explain why the little people are found through out folklore besides failed attempts at primitive science.  So those wed to that explanation can indeed be said to hold an unsupported certainty (or faith) in their nothing-but belief.  One can eschew literal little people belief while remaining agnostic regarding other people's rationale for believing in them.  Perhaps the wee folk perform a perfectly reasonable literary role?  There certainly are things to know which can not be verified by science, else wise why is there poetry, literature or the arts generally?
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#49

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-18-2019, 11:29 AM)LastPoet Wrote:
(09-17-2019, 10:49 PM)grympy Wrote:
(09-16-2019, 04:18 PM)LastPoet Wrote: *channels* If you look at Aristotle, Aquinas and Spinoza you will find the notion of atheism silly as it denies the greatness of human imagination Big Grin

Perhaps next time use your own imagination and add your own thoughts. Perhaps even have a go at proving your claims . The above post  presents some claims  but is not an argument.   Facepalm
 
 ALL that  fatuous sentence  shows  [ if true] is that great minds have weak spots,  can also be truly ignorant ,and simply mistaken .  I think this is a classic as example of  "
appeal to authority"  IE claiming a thing is true simply because of who made the claim, rather  than being true in and of itself . This has not been proved to be the case.
.
  Atheism is only a disbelief in gods. Most atheists I know support science . A great many scientists are also atheists.   Science  is THE area which allows  the human imagination complete freedom. 

If anything ,it is believers who stifle imagination  because they are anti science .Devout Christians will accept science as long a it does not contradict THEIR perception of doctrine; EG fundamentalists reject evolution, which is simply mainstream science. Because such people lack the wit grasp Genesis especially is allegory and mythology.  

 Recently a Catholic troglodyte banned Harry Potter books at his  school because he thinks they are demonic.  

The evangelicals I've met all have some things in common; a closed mind as well as being anti intellectual and anti science. A closed mind is the very definition of a lack of imagination.

Heh, there is the smilie and the *channels* at the start of my post. By Poe's law, my sarcasm should've been obvious. Oh well.

Oh, I AM sorry.

Mate, I even miss sarcasm in real life.  hobo
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#50

Why Atheism Is Not A Creed Or Faith, etc.
(09-18-2019, 11:37 AM)Phaedrus Wrote: Some theists like to play semantics games in order to get atheists to admit that they adhere to a belief, as though the word is somehow synonymous with religious faith.

Atheism

The definition, after all, does state this:
Quote:atheism[ ey-thee-iz-uh m ]
noun
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

Well that is, in my view, a very poor and in fact misleading choice of words -- and not, by the way, the only definition; for example, the first Google result I get for "atheist definition" is: "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods"., which I think is much better and doesn't so fully presuppose a religious context or framing, even if it's still not perfect. In the definition you cite on the other hand, "Doctrine" is a term describing religious dogma, and "belief" is a squishy word with two very different meanings but I suspect for most believers it evokes belief based on personal preference or insistence rather than a belief based on reason, experience or evidence.

I've mostly lost interest in attempting to explain what atheism means to THIS atheist, as it's difficult to do even with some other atheists (and some other agnostics, who are even more wobbly in what they think the terms rightly means or even what it means to them). And I suspect that most people in the general population would struggle to see the significance of "lack of belief in any deities" vs "not believing in [my] god", or of the distinction between not knowing god and god not being knowable, the difference between knowledge and belief claims, etc. I've patiently tried to explain all this so many times to so many people to so little effect that I've sort of collapsed around it. I'm not saying my definitions or usages are the only possible ones; I simply can't seem to get most people to understand how and why I use them and how my usage compares to others in circulation, or gotten them to defend their own usage in any terms other than that they're self-evidently right and I'm self-evidently wrong.

Given that ... increasingly I let people (not just theists, necessarily, either) play their semantic games and make their bad faith arguments and I just keep on doing my thing that works for me. I don't really engage on these topics anymore unless I sense a real openness and sense of honest inquiry -- something that's increasingly rare in this increasingly insane world we live in.
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