Migrant caravan headed to US

[Yonadav]

We're all going to fucking Hell for this.

Not to diminish present human suffering, but in many ways the problems we have now, and will likely have in the future, are because of human successes being so excessive.  These include better human health and agriculture resulting in over-population, short-term gains leading to the destruction of environments, and burning fossil fuels leading to climate change.  All of that being the case, trying to help people even more seems a losing proposition.  This isn't cynicism, but trying to be realistic.  There is a very real question about how to avoid making our problems even worse, and about what really should be our priorities.  Our good intentions have misled us before.  Otherwise we will be treating the symptoms rather than the disease, all to little avail.

One reason Trump is a liar is because he thinks simple-minded solutions will solve complex problems.

I am going to change 'simple-minded' to 'simple'.

Isn't what you are saying a little too simple and convenient?  In some ways, your views on the third world coincide with mine.  We shouldn't want these people to live our high carbon footprint lifestyle.  But I am more critical of our bad intentions toward the third world, whereas you are more concerned with our good intentions helping them to flourish. I object to industrializing the third world because our motivation for doing it is to take advantage of workers with no rights in lands with little or no environmental regulation.  There are bad intentions all over the place, in regard to industrializing the third world. Then the citizens of those lands start to live lives that are much higher carbon footprint lives, like ours.  We get cheaper consumer goods while vastly increasing environmental damage.

Refusing to help the citizens of the northern triangle isn't a very effective strategy for environmental protection.  Those people already live pretty low carbon footprint lives. It is wealthy people who are responsible for global warming, and not poor people. So sure, we can withdraw aid from these people so that they won't have medicine or food, and some of their population will die, and they will have high infant and childhood mortality. But that isn't going to have any significant impact on global warming.

Where you and I coincide, is that we would both prefer that the residents of the northern triangle continue to live there, rather that coming to the US and living high carbon footprint lives. Neither of us wants that. But right now, we do have some desperate people knocking on our door. It really is a humanitarian crises, and we can't simply tell them to go get lost because we are environmentalist and the world is over populated. While the world might be over populated, there are almost certainly more humane ways to address that. And honestly, I am a little skeptical of the overpopulation argument, because global warming is driven primarily by a small segment of the population.

So we need to look at why people are mass emigrating from the northern triangle.  There is war there, especially narco-warfare.  We are largely responsible for this, because it is the American market for narcotics that is driving it. What should we do about it? Eh, that's a different discussion. In this discussion, I'm just saying that the narco-wars are our responsibility.

Another major factor that is making life unbearable in the northern triangle is ownership of resources.  Take Honduras, for example.  Their economy is largely agrarian. They export bananas and coffee. But multinational corporations bought up the land, and the only benefit that Honduran workers get from bananas and coffee is from their labor. The profit from bananas and coffee is exported to the multinational companies. A similar thing happened with their precious metals. Foreigners simply extracted their precious metals and walked away with them. These people don't own the wealth of their own nation. Almost all of the profit derived from the wealth of their nation is exported.

[Full Circle]

Who the fuck goes walking hundreds of miles in those pink shoes!

I’m sure it was that or barefoot. 

[Dom]

I wish people would call it "group of asylum seekers" instead of "migrant caravan".

[Kim]

I wish people would call it "group of asylum seekers" instead of "migrant caravan".

Gotta keep up terroristic appearances.  

Here is a very comprehensive perspective from the New Yorker.  They have a journalist on the trek with the refugees.

The recent New Yorker podcast has an update interview with Jonathan Blitzer, their journalist traveling with the caravan. It really is NOT what anyone in the US thinks it is.

[Chas]

[airportkid]

I think that was received as junk mail that got marked "Return to Sender"

[Yonadav]

I wish people would call it "group of asylum seekers" instead of "migrant caravan".

Gotta keep up terroristic appearances.  

Here is a very comprehensive perspective from the New Yorker.  They have a journalist on the trek with the refugees.

The recent New Yorker podcast has an update interview with Jonathan Blitzer, their journalist traveling with the caravan.  It really is NOT what anyone in the US thinks it is.

I read the article.  The caravan is described pretty much the way I expected. Throughout this caravan's journey, I have been pretty impressed by the basic decency of the Mexican people.  I spent quite a bit of time in Mexico almost 3 decades ago, so I am not real surprised at their decency. But I was a little bit afraid that maybe the Mexico that I knew was perhaps no longer so kind, because of the narco-warfare that has been taking such a toll down there.

[Kim]

I wish people would call it "group of asylum seekers" instead of "migrant caravan".

Gotta keep up terroristic appearances.  

Here is a very comprehensive perspective from the New Yorker.  They have a journalist on the trek with the refugees.

The recent New Yorker podcast has an update interview with Jonathan Blitzer, their journalist traveling with the caravan.  It really is NOT what anyone in the US thinks it is.

I read the article.  The caravan is described pretty much the way I expected. Throughout this caravan's journey, I have been pretty impressed by the basic decency of the Mexican people.  I spent quite a bit of time in Mexico almost 3 decades ago, so I am not real surprised at their decency. But I was a little bit afraid that maybe the Mexico that I knew was perhaps no longer so kind, because of the narco-warfare that has been taking such a toll down there.

Well, Mexico will soon have their new president take over so, much could change - possibly for the better.

[Yonadav]

Gotta keep up terroristic appearances.  

Here is a very comprehensive perspective from the New Yorker.  They have a journalist on the trek with the refugees.

The recent New Yorker podcast has an update interview with Jonathan Blitzer, their journalist traveling with the caravan.  It really is NOT what anyone in the US thinks it is.

I read the article.  The caravan is described pretty much the way I expected. Throughout this caravan's journey, I have been pretty impressed by the basic decency of the Mexican people.  I spent quite a bit of time in Mexico almost 3 decades ago, so I am not real surprised at their decency. But I was a little bit afraid that maybe the Mexico that I knew was perhaps no longer so kind, because of the narco-warfare that has been taking such a toll down there.

Well, Mexico will soon have their new president take over so, much could change - possibly for the better.

Yeah, I've been watching this guy since before the election. I haven't made up my mind about whether he is more like Trump or more like Sanders.

[SYZ]

Well, my possibly over-simplistic(?) viewpoint is that regardless of your location, your society,
your politics, your economic status, your religion—or anything else in fact—the absolute last
people that should be adversely affected and possibly scarred for life emotionally, are our
children, all of our children, the world over.

I'm truly fed up with kids invariably ending up as the meat in the sandwich, even here in
Australia, where there's so much parental abuse, belligerent divorces, lack of children's
social resources, juvenile crime, sexual assaults etc.  The little girl in that distressing image
simply DOES NOT DESERVE to be anywhere in that scenario.

[GirlyMan]

Haven't heard anything on Fox News about the invasion since the election. Did they turn around and go home? Will the military get to go home for Thanksgiving?

[Dom]

Haven't heard anything on Fox News about the invasion since the election. Did they turn around and go home? Will the military get to go home for Thanksgiving?

He doesn't need to whip up any crowds right now, he's in Paris insulting the French Prez and bitching about California fires.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Don't let 'em grind you down, Yonadav.  A lot of prissy schoolgirl whining about HOW you say things rather that what you say.  (Unless you said something bad about me.  In that case, duck, cause I'll go prissy schoolgirl whining cubed)

How something is said has a lot to do with how it is received. In any communication, there are two parties -- at least. If the speaker gets feedback indicating a misunderstanding, it behooves him to review his communication as much as it behooves the listener to review his filters.

[Yonadav]

Haven't heard anything on Fox News about the invasion since the election. Did they turn around and go home? Will the military get to go home for Thanksgiving?

They just left Mexico City and are continuing north. I've been thinking about circulating mischievous fake news about the migrants not wanting to live in our shithole country, and they are just trying to get to Canada.

[Thumpalumpacus]

And honestly, I am a little skeptical of the overpopulation argument, because global warming is driven primarily by a small segment of the population.

Do you have numbers backing this up? If so I'd be interested in seeing them. While it's true that the wealthy tend to have larger per-capita footprints, in impoverished countries, fuel for cooking and heating is largely local, and often locally-sourced wood burnt. This results in not only uncontrolled burning, but also depletion of the local forests. We've seen in Madagascar and elsewhere widespread deforestation of rain forests for this purpose, meaning that a major carbon-sink is being shrunk. China's industrialization doubtless plays a large role as well, given their heavy reliance on coal for energy and their enormous population. We can file India into that slot as well.

While you're right that industrialized countries deliver larger per-capita footprints, I'm not sure that they are as much drivers of the problem as you seem to be. There are, after all, so many more poor folk than there are wealthy Westerners.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wish people would call it "group of asylum seekers" instead of "migrant caravan".

Anything is better than "invasion", which this isn't.

[Thumpalumpacus]

This is what it boils down to for me. Do we live up to our ideals? Are we generous of heart? Can't a nation of 325 million spare five thousand jobs in doing the right thing?

"We turned our gaze from the castles in the distance,
eyes cast down on the path of least resistance.
Cities full of hatred, fear, and lies --
withered hearts and cruel tormented eyes.
Scheming demons dressed in kingly guise,
beating down the multitudes and
scoffing at the wise."

[Alan V]

While it's true that the wealthy tend to have larger per-capita footprints, in impoverished countries, fuel for cooking and heating is largely local, and often locally-sourced wood burnt. This results in not only uncontrolled burning, but also depletion of the local forests. We've seen in Madagascar and elsewhere widespread deforestation of rain forests for this purpose, meaning that a major carbon-sink is being shrunk. China's industrialization doubtless plays a large role as well, given their heavy reliance on coal for energy and their enormous population. We can file India into that slot as well.

While you're right that industrialized countries deliver larger per-capita footprints, I'm not sure that they are as much drivers of the problem as you seem to be. There are, after all, so many more poor folk than there are wealthy Westerners.

At this point, China and India are big contributors to climate change, just as you say.

Also:

"Black carbon, or soot, is making a much larger contribution to global warming than previously recognised, according to research.  Scientists say that particles from diesel engines and wood burning could be having twice as much warming effect as assessed in past estimates.  They say it ranks second only to carbon dioxide as the most important climate-warming agent.  The research is in the Journal of Geophysical Research-Atmospheres.  Black carbon aerosols have been known to warm the atmosphere for many years by absorbing sunlight. They also speed the melting of ice and snow."

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21033078

[Smercury44]

This is what it boils down to for me. Do we live up to our ideals? Are we generous of heart? Can't a nation of 325 million spare five thousand jobs in doing the right thing?

"We turned our gaze from the castles in the distance,
eyes cast down on the path of least resistance.
Cities full of hatred, fear, and lies --
withered hearts and cruel tormented eyes.
Scheming demons dressed in kingly guise,
beating down the multitudes and
scoffing at the wise."

I was in NY and visiting the Statue of Liberty for the first time while Trump was trying to push the Muslim ban. It was a much more emotional an experience than I had expected. Seeing her in all her glory, thinking of the message she represented, and the direction our country was heading. Broke my heart.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Who the fuck goes walking hundreds of miles in those pink shoes!

I’m sure it was that or barefoot. 

Or they could have been the next pair she wore. Or the next pair someone gave her.

[Yonadav]

 

At this point, China and India are big contributors to climate change, just as you say.

Also:

"Black carbon, or soot, is making a much larger contribution to global warming than previously recognised, according to research.  Scientists say that particles from diesel engines and wood burning could be having twice as much warming effect as assessed in past estimates.  They say it ranks second only to carbon dioxide as the most important climate-warming agent.  The research is in the Journal of Geophysical Research-Atmospheres.  Black carbon aerosols have been known to warm the atmosphere for many years by absorbing sunlight. They also speed the melting of ice and snow."

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21033078
[/quote]

Thor's post above###################Yonadav's below

We are straying pretty far off topic, here. China and India burn a lot of coal on our behalf. A significant part of their carbon footprint is actually our carbon footprint.  How nice for us. 

The wood fires thing is half red herring. In terms of carbon, the fuel is part of the carbon cycle. Forrest fires probably emit more carbon and black carbon aerosols than intentional human wood burning. Even if we stopped people from burning wood for heat and cooking, 40 million Californians will still be setting their forests on fire on a regular seasonal basis. Here's an article to give it some perspective:

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/wester...ek-n810421

So back on topic, I just don't see our concerns about global warming as a valid pretext for being dispassionate toward emigrants who are fleeing the northern triangle.

[Alan V]

I just don't see our concerns about global warming as a valid pretext for being dispassionate toward emigrants who are fleeing the northern triangle.

My question was this: Do we understand the origin of this problem well enough so that we are "treating the disease rather than the symptoms"?  History would suggest that we don't.

But considering that the U.S. will spend an estimated $200 million for the military deployment to the southern border, we could just pay each of the 7000 caravan members $30,000 to stay in Mexico.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat...6d3169f5a7

[Alan V]

(Moved post to climate change discussion.)

[Thumpalumpacus]

I was in NY and visiting the Statue of Liberty for the first time while Trump was trying to push the Muslim ban. It was a much more emotional an experience than I had expected. Seeing her in all her glory, thinking of the message she represented, and the direction our country was heading.  Broke my heart.

I can only imagine the visceral impact that would have. 

They will not win out.

[Yonadav]

A judge has blocked Trump's new immigration rules that prevent a person who crosses the border outside of an official port of entry from requesting asylum.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...060994002/

From the article:

“The rule barring asylum for immigrants who enter the country outside a port of entry irreconcilably conflicts with the INA and the expressed intent of Congress," wrote Tigar, who was appointed by former President Barack Obama. "Whatever the scope of the President’s authority, he may not rewrite the immigration laws to impose a condition that Congress has expressly forbidden.”