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why do bad things happen to 'good people'

why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-01-2020, 02:24 AM)Chas Wrote:
(01-31-2020, 06:02 PM)Drich Wrote: Jefferson not only self identifies as Christian he loves Christ and implements his teaching as the cornerstones of his life,


You mean owning slaves and fathering children with at least one?

Quote:
which again is why he wrote the first, book to the indians


Nope, he didn't.
Quote:
The full title of the compilation is believed to be “The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth: extracted from the account of his life and doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John. Being an abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians unembarrassed with matters of fact or faith beyond the level of their comprehensions.” ...
Jefferson was being deliberately ironic when he used the term “Indians” in his subtitle. He was not referring to the aboriginal population in the United States, but was using the term as a code word to refer to his Federalist and clerical adversaries.

Quote:
and the second to his fellow countrymen.

Nope, he didn't. The second one was kept secret during his lifetime.

Quote:Jefferson took up the second compilation in earnest in 1819 and produced a new volume entitled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, known today as The Jefferson Bible. This volume was also for his own use,...

so your intellectual response is.. nuh-huh to anything you disagree with?

Nice this should be simple to properly refute.. you watching... keep watching..
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-03-2020, 04:07 PM)Mathilda Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 04:04 PM)Drich Wrote: bible based christian. which means I am a follower of the teachings and examples of Christ.

Which bible?

any formal equivalence bible based on the SeptuagintTextus Receptus, and Masoretic Text. Dead Sea scrolls
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 04:18 PM)Drich Wrote: In the example of Danu's charge it is Hersey against the RC church...

I said no such thing.  You'd go a lot further persuading people if you weren't constantly breaking commandments for no fucking reason whatsoever.



I am not breaking any commands. if you think I am then please provide book chapter and verse.
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 03:04 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 02:41 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Dānu Wrote: I said no such thing.  You'd go a lot further persuading people if you weren't constantly breaking commandments for no fucking reason whatsoever.

that's just it. out of the list of RC specific core doctrine i provided to you, there is not one command among any of those RC specific doctrine. command meaning anything recorded in the bible

You're a moron.  I never said that heresy had to do with Catholic doctrine.  That was your strawman.  And now claiming that was my complaint is just lying.

maybe go back a few post and familiarize yourself again with the nature of our discussion. it seems you are unfamiliar with out current topic.
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 03:41 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 02:54 PM)Phaedrus Wrote: No one fails in faith. Some people are simply gullible to its influence.

if this were true there would not be one unfulfilled dream. not one failed business. not one failed marriage.

If god actually existed, certainly.
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
It seems odd that, if Jefferson had intended his first volume as a volume to be used in the education of the Native Americans, presumably a religious education, he chose not to include much if any of the religious elements of Jesus' story. It doesn't even include the resurrection. How can you teach the Christian religion without saying a word about the resurrection?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 03:51 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 04:18 PM)Drich Wrote: In the example of Danu's charge it is Hersey against the RC church...

I said no such thing.  You'd go a lot further persuading people if you weren't constantly breaking commandments for no fucking reason whatsoever.



I am not breaking any commands. if you think I am then please provide book chapter and verse.

(02-04-2020, 03:52 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 03:04 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 02:41 PM)Drich Wrote: that's just it. out of the list of RC specific core doctrine i provided to you, there is not one command among any of those RC specific doctrine. command meaning anything recorded in the bible

You're a moron.  I never said that heresy had to do with Catholic doctrine.  That was your strawman.  And now claiming that was my complaint is just lying.

maybe go back a few post and familiarize yourself again with the nature of our discussion. it seems you are unfamiliar with out current topic.
[emphasis mine]

You claimed that it was my charge that you were in violation of Catholic doctrine (you used the possessive "Danu's"). I'm quite familiar with the discussion and what you have claimed. Jesus was quite clear that among the commandments one must keep one must not bear false witness. You lied about what I said, and now you're defending a lie.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 04:44 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 03:51 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Dānu Wrote: I said no such thing.  You'd go a lot further persuading people if you weren't constantly breaking commandments for no fucking reason whatsoever.



I am not breaking any commands. if you think I am then please provide book chapter and verse.

(02-04-2020, 03:52 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 03:04 PM)Dānu Wrote: You're a moron.  I never said that heresy had to do with Catholic doctrine.  That was your strawman.  And now claiming that was my complaint is just lying.

maybe go back a few post and familiarize yourself again with the nature of our discussion. it seems you are unfamiliar with out current topic.
[emphasis mine]

You claimed that it was my charge that you were in violation of Catholic doctrine (you used the possessive "Danu's").  I'm quite familiar with the discussion and what you have claimed.  Jesus was quite clear that among the commandments one must keep one must not bear false witness.  You lied about what I said, and now you're defending a lie.

maybe a misunderstanding here but as i remember in the past (jorgmandure past) when ever we had a theoretical disagreement it was based on your understanding that the church true form was the RC church. you compare what i have said with what the RC church teaches.

Then recently we had a discussion on Peter's claim to be the father of the true church.

In this thread post number:236 I outlined the actual definition of the word and identified how your charge of hersey consides with the rules of RC orthodoxy. then I gave a list of teaching/doctrine found in the RC church I do not agree with which again would make me a heretic. which again I have no problem with, as none of those teaching are found in the bible.

So again not lying, you simply got lost in the nuances of this subject, and rather go back and correct yourself, you have since challenged me to do so.

consider yourself corrected. Sun
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 04:39 PM)Dānu Wrote: It seems odd that, if Jefferson had intended his first volume as a volume to be used in the education of the Native Americans, presumably a religious education, he chose not to include much if any of the religious elements of Jesus' story.  It doesn't even include the resurrection.  How can you teach the Christian religion without saying a word about the resurrection?

you presume too much.

At this point religious conversion has failed. and all they want is to live in a relative peace/share a common morality.

They are not seeking to teach the religion as the indians can't seems to grasp the idea of a central God. 


Rather the primary goal was to civilize the indigiousness population or move them west of the mississippi. Their attempts to assimilate the indians into the white culture failed.

What would seem strange to me is why he would write two books one concentrating only on the morality/teachings of Christ (the simplest thing to understand) and a second more in depth book looking at the whole life philosophy and teachings of Christ if they were not intended for two audiences.

What's even stranger is why title the lessor/easier to understand, the two books written on the same subject compiled the same way, the same book that did not go into mass print or circulation because the indians were up rooted and moved west of the Mississippi. was titled
The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth: extracted from the account of his life and doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John. Being an abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians unembarrassed with matters of fact or faith beyond the level of their comprehensions.”


https://www.monticello.org/site/research...11_s9g4jk8

If it were not written for the people it claims to be written for, for the expressed reason it was written which play directly into the idea this was not for the matter of religious conversion but cultural appropriation as the title indicates!!!

Then why the second book?

If this dummy's guide to the morals of Jesus was written to his counterparts in politics then why write the more contemporary book? why would he then read from this 2nd book, if the first was good enough for him and his counterparts?
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
moving on to the next thread
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 08:58 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 04:44 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 03:51 PM)Drich Wrote: I am not breaking any commands. if you think I am then please provide book chapter and verse.

(02-04-2020, 03:52 PM)Drich Wrote: maybe go back a few post and familiarize yourself again with the nature of our discussion. it seems you are unfamiliar with out current topic.
[emphasis mine]

You claimed that it was my charge that you were in violation of Catholic doctrine (you used the possessive "Danu's").  I'm quite familiar with the discussion and what you have claimed.  Jesus was quite clear that among the commandments one must keep one must not bear false witness.  You lied about what I said, and now you're defending a lie.

maybe a misunderstanding here but as i remember in the past (jorgmandure past) when ever we had a theoretical disagreement it was based on your understanding that the church true form was the RC church. you compare what i have said with what the RC church teaches.

Then recently we had a discussion on Peter's claim to be the father of the true church.

In this thread post number:236 I outlined the actual definition of the word and identified how your charge of hersey consides with the rules of RC orthodoxy. then I gave a list of teaching/doctrine found in the RC church I do not agree with which again would make me a heretic. which again I have no problem with, as none of those teaching are found in the bible.

So again not lying, you simply got lost in the nuances of this subject, and rather go back and correct yourself, you have since challenged me to do so.

consider yourself corrected. Sun

a. I have never represented the Roman Catholic church as the true church.
b. Yes we discussed the Catholic claim of priority. That discussion had no bearing on the current discussion and is irrelevant. And that wasn't a discussion about Peter's claim but rather whether the infallibility of the pope was mentioned in the bible. It had zip to do with heresy.
c. Yes, you quoted a definition of the word, and in your incompetence failed to realize that even the definition you quoted doesn't support you. The definition you quoted didn't reference Roman Catholicism and explicitly stated that Christianity was a subset of the religious orthodoxy to which it was making reference ("contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine" [emphasis mine]). Is Christianity a subset of Roman Catholicism? I don't think so.
d. I never made any charge that heresy coincides with deviation from Roman Catholic doctrine, in fact I clarified that while this was how you understood it, that was not how I understood it, and in spite of that clarification you continued to misrepresent me.
e. You haven't corrected anyone about anything. Quite the contrary, all you've done is demonstrate why I no longer choose to have discussions with you. You are entirely too stupid and too delusional for any discussion with you to have any value other than to give people someone to laugh at and something to giggle over. I no longer waste my time because your brain is so completely disconnected from reality that there's no real point. It's just become a droll exercise in which I catalogue the errors in your moronic ass twaddle.

Now, you were wrong and everyone but you knows that. Your delusional beliefs about it cut no ice with me, or anyone else. Go tell your wife. I'm sure she'll give you a kiss for it.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
Drich, Drich, Drich, Drich, Drich, Drich, Drich, Drich, Drich, Drich.  

Do you know Rainy D by any chance?   hobo
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
Quote:you presume too much.

What part of "he kept it secret and then redid it in 20 years later and kept that secret, too" is giving you the most trouble, asswipe.

You redefine stupidity on a daily basis.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 03:32 PM)Drich Wrote: Honestly because jefferson refutes this idea partially in the syllabus he wrote in 1808 as president.
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/...-0178-0002

Did you even read that? It refutes nothing.

Quote: Then again in the fact there were two book he published. He wrote two books because one was simplified and dumbed down/very basic for indian usage and the other was written to his fellow white american. the second is the one known as the jefferson bible. but in fact named “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth,”This book was more refined of the two and as such he read from it every night before bed.
while the first book is named and subtitled:The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth. 
This copy or first draft did not include any details of christ just his moral teachings as again it was thought it to be too difficult to have a native american to wrap his head around of the deity and purpose of Christ. Jefferson's goal was simply to teach the purposed assimilated indians how to live among whites.


He was a Naturalist and did not include anything supernatural.  He believed the morality, but not the theology.

Quote:


I win this debate because my primary source material back by the primary sourced syllabus TJ wrote on the matter of his thoughts on Jesus Christ,  which is more or less a love letter to christ declaring his love and respect and lifelong devotion to his teachings.

You don't win shit.  Your understanding of Jefferson, his writings, and the history of them is so skewed as to be laughable.

Quote:I have two primary sourced documents that underscore everything I said here. (I can also reference a letter to Adams where he again points to his first book as being intended for the assimilation of the indians.) So 3 primary sourced documents. against your tertiary post dated commentary.

Those documents do not say what you claim them to say. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 03:44 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-01-2020, 02:24 AM)Chas Wrote:
(01-31-2020, 06:02 PM)Drich Wrote: Jefferson not only self identifies as Christian he loves Christ and implements his teaching as the cornerstones of his life,


You mean owning slaves and fathering children with at least one?

Quote:
which again is why he wrote the first, book to the indians


Nope, he didn't.
Quote:
The full title of the compilation is believed to be “The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth: extracted from the account of his life and doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John. Being an abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians unembarrassed with matters of fact or faith beyond the level of their comprehensions.” ...
Jefferson was being deliberately ironic when he used the term “Indians” in his subtitle. He was not referring to the aboriginal population in the United States, but was using the term as a code word to refer to his Federalist and clerical adversaries.

Quote:
and the second to his fellow countrymen.

Nope, he didn't. The second one was kept secret during his lifetime.

Quote:Jefferson took up the second compilation in earnest in 1819 and produced a new volume entitled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, known today as The Jefferson Bible. This volume was also for his own use,...

so your intellectual response is.. nuh-huh to anything you disagree with?

Nice this should be simple to properly refute.. you watching... keep watching..

Read the fucking links, you moron. Facepalm
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 04:39 PM)Dānu Wrote: It seems odd that, if Jefferson had intended his first volume as a volume to be used in the education of the Native Americans, presumably a religious education, he chose not to include much if any of the religious elements of Jesus' story.  It doesn't even include the resurrection.  How can you teach the Christian religion without saying a word about the resurrection?

And he didn't even publish it. It was given to no Native Americans.  Ever.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-04-2020, 09:30 PM)Dānu Wrote:   Your delusional beliefs about it cut no ice with me, or anyone else.  Go tell your wife.   I'm sure she'll give you a kiss for it.
Hug you are right about one thing for once.

I went line by line wrote a bunch of scathing remarks, but in the end who cares.. bottom line i do not think like you do and in your alphabetical points you made none of them is how I view the same topic.

which only emphasizes the margin of error, between your understanding and mine.

Plus my wife's kiss made up for all your mean crap, and i did not feel like i should be mean back.
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
Ah, time for my favorite game: "First Page Last Page."

Why do bad things happen to good people? Because Thomas Jefferson was a slave-owning Christian! Who knew?
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-05-2020, 09:54 PM)Aegon Wrote: Ah, time for my favorite game: "First Page Last Page."

Why do bad things happen to good people? Because Thomas Jefferson was a slave-owning Christian! Who knew?

...but, what about the Indians ?
Test
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
Quote: “The cavalries charged and the Indians died, oh the country was young with God on its side.” — Bob Dylan
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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(02-05-2020, 06:18 AM)Chas Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 03:32 PM)Drich Wrote: Honestly because jefferson refutes this idea partially in the syllabus he wrote in 1808 as president.
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/...-0178-0002

Did you even read that? It refutes nothing.
Did you read it if you did then you know he was not a naturalist.

Quote:He was a Naturalist and did not include anything supernatural.  He believed the morality, but not the theology.

TJ:
The question of his being a member of the god-head, or in direct communication with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others, is foreign to the present view, which is merely an estimate of the intrinsic merit of his doctrines.

Jefferson states he is simply unsure that his focus and discipleship is based on the intrinsic merit of his doctrine.

Quote:You don't win shit.  Your understanding of Jefferson, his writings, and the history of them is so skewed as to be laughable.
what's truly a sign of ignorance is how you do not address the primary material directly you do not quote and use and supplementary material at all. you solely rely on ad hoc and ad hom attack.
you are a caveman who smashes things and pumps himself up as an alpha(in this case intellect) never once speaking topically never once citing any real information.. you simply try and dismiss everything contrary to your pov. 
For instance, let me show you how to intellectually disassemble your opponent's argument properly.

First we define his objective/objection. You claimed Jefferson was a naturalist. so let's define that word.

2.

the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.
"this romanticized attitude to the world did conflict with his avowed naturalism"


This say to be a naturalist one must believe there is no supernatural God.

Now for the intellectual discussion we must find primary proof on what TJ thought of the supernatural God.

we have a letter:
From Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 11 April 1823

Monticello April 11. 23.

Dear Sir

The wishes expressed, in your last favor, that I may continue in life and health until I become a Calvinist, at least in his exclamation of ‘mon Dieu! jusque à quand’! would make me immortal. I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. he was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Dæmonism. if ever man worshipped a false god, he did. the being described in his 5. points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a dæmon of malignant spirit.

(he then identifies popular atheist and their thoughtsSmile
Ocellus, Timaeus, Spinosa, Diderot and D’Holbach. the argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of Cosmogony you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. they say then that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may for ever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or Creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend.


(now he tells us what he thinks)
 on the contrary I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it’s parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition. the movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with it’s distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organised as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is , in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. we see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it’s course and order. stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. so irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have existed thro’ all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe. 
Jefferson in his own words to adams is describing an all powerful God designing creating and holding the world together SUPERNATURALLY.

Which makes you sir wrong. Jefferson was not a naturalist. given the date of this letter this was his thoughts later in life. (for those who like to claim as he got older the more atheist he became)

Quote:Those documents do not say what you claim them to say. Deadpan Coffee Drinker

see again did not quote anything did not make any topical argument, just a move to dismissal.
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-06-2020, 03:25 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-05-2020, 06:18 AM)Chas Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 03:32 PM)Drich Wrote: Honestly because jefferson refutes this idea partially in the syllabus he wrote in 1808 as president.
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/...-0178-0002

Did you even read that? It refutes nothing.
Did you read it if you did then you know he was not a naturalist.

Quote:He was a Naturalist and did not include anything supernatural.  He believed the morality, but not the theology.

TJ:
The question of his being a member of the god-head, or in direct communication with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others, is foreign to the present view, which is merely an estimate of the intrinsic merit of his doctrines.

Jefferson states he is simply unsure that his focus and discipleship is based on the intrinsic merit of his doctrine.

Quote:You don't win shit.  Your understanding of Jefferson, his writings, and the history of them is so skewed as to be laughable.
what's truly a sign of ignorance is how you do not address the primary material directly you do not quote and use and supplementary material at all. you solely rely on ad hoc and ad hom attack.
you are a caveman who smashes things and pumps himself up as an alpha(in this case intellect) never once speaking topically never once citing any real information.. you simply try and dismiss everything contrary to your pov. 
For instance, let me show you how to intellectually disassemble your opponent's argument properly.

First we define his objective/objection. You claimed Jefferson was a naturalist. so let's define that word.

2.

the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.
"this romanticized attitude to the world did conflict with his avowed naturalism"


This say to be a naturalist one must believe there is no supernatural God.

Now for the intellectual discussion we must find primary proof on what TJ thought of the supernatural God.

we have a letter:
From Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 11 April 1823

Monticello April 11. 23.

Dear Sir

The wishes expressed, in your last favor, that I may continue in life and health until I become a Calvinist, at least in his exclamation of ‘mon Dieu! jusque à quand’! would make me immortal. I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. he was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Dæmonism. if ever man worshipped a false god, he did. the being described in his 5. points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a dæmon of malignant spirit.

(he then identifies popular atheist and their thoughtsSmile
Ocellus, Timaeus, Spinosa, Diderot and D’Holbach. the argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of Cosmogony you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. they say then that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may for ever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or Creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend.


(now he tells us what he thinks)
 on the contrary I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it’s parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition. the movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with it’s distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organised as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is , in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. we see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it’s course and order. stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. so irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have existed thro’ all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe. 
Jefferson in his own words to adams is describing an all powerful God designing creating and holding the world together SUPERNATURALLY.

Which makes you sir wrong. Jefferson was not a naturalist. given the date of this letter this was his thoughts later in life. (for those who like to claim as he got older the more atheist he became)

Quote:Those documents do not say what you claim them to say. Deadpan Coffee Drinker

see again did not quote anything did not make any topical argument, just a move to dismissal.

No one cares Dripshit.
It's all irrelevant and total rubbish.
It's also the argument from authority fallacy.
Jefferson may have been well-read and educated. He was not a professional philosopher, ethicist, or theologian.
He has nothing, other than his personal opinions, to offer about any subject, (except how to keep slaves and run a farm).
What he did or did not say about religions or any subject other than his primary profession is all totally irrelevant.
Quoting him in BIG letters does not make the drivel anything other than drivel.
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why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-06-2020, 04:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 03:25 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-05-2020, 06:18 AM)Chas Wrote: Did you even read that? It refutes nothing.
Did you read it if you did then you know he was not a naturalist.

Quote:He was a Naturalist and did not include anything supernatural.  He believed the morality, but not the theology.

TJ:
The question of his being a member of the god-head, or in direct communication with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others, is foreign to the present view, which is merely an estimate of the intrinsic merit of his doctrines.

Jefferson states he is simply unsure that his focus and discipleship is based on the intrinsic merit of his doctrine.

Quote:You don't win shit.  Your understanding of Jefferson, his writings, and the history of them is so skewed as to be laughable.
what's truly a sign of ignorance is how you do not address the primary material directly you do not quote and use and supplementary material at all. you solely rely on ad hoc and ad hom attack.
you are a caveman who smashes things and pumps himself up as an alpha(in this case intellect) never once speaking topically never once citing any real information.. you simply try and dismiss everything contrary to your pov. 
For instance, let me show you how to intellectually disassemble your opponent's argument properly.

First we define his objective/objection. You claimed Jefferson was a naturalist. so let's define that word.

2.

the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.
"this romanticized attitude to the world did conflict with his avowed naturalism"


This say to be a naturalist one must believe there is no supernatural God.

Now for the intellectual discussion we must find primary proof on what TJ thought of the supernatural God.

we have a letter:
From Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 11 April 1823

Monticello April 11. 23.

Dear Sir

The wishes expressed, in your last favor, that I may continue in life and health until I become a Calvinist, at least in his exclamation of ‘mon Dieu! jusque à quand’! would make me immortal. I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. he was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Dæmonism. if ever man worshipped a false god, he did. the being described in his 5. points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a dæmon of malignant spirit.

(he then identifies popular atheist and their thoughtsSmile
Ocellus, Timaeus, Spinosa, Diderot and D’Holbach. the argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of Cosmogony you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. they say then that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may for ever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or Creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend.


(now he tells us what he thinks)
 on the contrary I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it’s parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition. the movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with it’s distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organised as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is , in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. we see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it’s course and order. stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. so irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have existed thro’ all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe. 
Jefferson in his own words to adams is describing an all powerful God designing creating and holding the world together SUPERNATURALLY.

Which makes you sir wrong. Jefferson was not a naturalist. given the date of this letter this was his thoughts later in life. (for those who like to claim as he got older the more atheist he became)

Quote:Those documents do not say what you claim them to say. Deadpan Coffee Drinker

see again did not quote anything did not make any topical argument, just a move to dismissal.

No one cares Dripshit.
It's all irrelevant and total rubbish.
It's also the argument from authority fallacy.
Jefferson may have been well-read and educated. He was not a professional philosopher, ethicist, or theologian.
He has nothing, other than his personal opinions, to offer about any subject, (except how to keep slaves and run a farm).
What he did or did not say about religions or any subject other than his primary profession is all totally irrelevant.
Quoting him in BIG letters does not make the drivel anything other than drivel.
No one cares?!?!?
Dance ROFL2 Chuckle Double Finger Trophy Chuckle Lol2 LaughAt

then why hijack my thread and defend you revisionist BS for going on 3 weeks if you don't care?

Why did your buddies take up and defend your revisionist history if no one cares?

You can't even remember why Jefferson was even introduced into the topic, and your diatribe after your admission of defeat "I don't care" screams it.

If you will remember you were first learning about non denominational christian belief from me, and did not understand it represents the majority of this country's modern christianity. so you crapped on and doubted everything I had to say, that nondenominational belief was something I myself made up. So I point back to jefferson who really was the father of non traditional/denominational belief in God.

The above TJ to JA quoted letter is proof of that, as calvinism is a denomination TJ is starkly against. (as well as the other denominations he mentions)

Then he outlines a belief in the almighty God unlike any other creed of his time. but still within the structure of Christianity as he himself identifies as a christian. 

Your statement "no one cares" is proof people like you do not seek proof of God, that you claim to seek. that you are not atheist, but a misotheist. You need to be right in all things, will have you cast proof/truth a side just as you did here, just so you can be right.

You are so intellectually dishonest you do not even remember why you have taken up the revisionist history of TJ. "it does not matter/no one cares." As demonstrated per your own actions; when you are proven wrong you drop any and all claims to Jefferson by throwing him under the bus by judging this man out of his time and morals to your own spiritual buffoonery.

This man even in the context of your spiritual bullshatery is a far greater man, who has contributed far more to this country than 10 generations of your ancestorship could or should every hope to accomplishment.

Who are you to judge jefferson? One who has never examined history outside of revisionist blogs or commentary that tells you what to think, to judge a man like this? Maybe get a job who's hourly wage will not be increased by a mandated 15.00 an hour, read the works and letters of TJ, spend time reading what he had to say rather than what other have said or speculate about him. Then maybe when you have your next conversation concerning a documented point of history, that still exists but your default position is the revisionist anti God propaganda, you will not have to back into the "who cares" corner..
Reply

why do bad things happen to 'good people'
moving on...
Reply

why do bad things happen to 'good people'
(02-06-2020, 05:31 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 04:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 03:25 PM)Drich Wrote: Did you read it if you did then you know he was not a naturalist.

TJ:[/size][/color]
The question of his being a member of the god-head, or in direct communication with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others, is foreign to the present view, which is merely an estimate of the intrinsic merit of his doctrines.

Jefferson states he is simply unsure that his focus and discipleship is based on the intrinsic merit of his doctrine.

what's truly a sign of ignorance is how you do not address the primary material directly you do not quote and use and supplementary material at all. you solely rely on ad hoc and ad hom attack.
you are a caveman who smashes things and pumps himself up as an alpha(in this case intellect) never once speaking topically never once citing any real information.. you simply try and dismiss everything contrary to your pov. 
For instance, let me show you how to intellectually disassemble your opponent's argument properly.

First we define his objective/objection. You claimed Jefferson was a naturalist. so let's define that word.

2.

the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.
"this romanticized attitude to the world did conflict with his avowed naturalism"


This say to be a naturalist one must believe there is no supernatural God.

Now for the intellectual discussion we must find primary proof on what TJ thought of the supernatural God.

we have a letter:
From Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 11 April 1823

Monticello April 11. 23.

Dear Sir

The wishes expressed, in your last favor, that I may continue in life and health until I become a Calvinist, at least in his exclamation of ‘mon Dieu! jusque à quand’! would make me immortal. I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. he was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Dæmonism. if ever man worshipped a false god, he did. the being described in his 5. points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a dæmon of malignant spirit.

(he then identifies popular atheist and their thoughtsSmile
Ocellus, Timaeus, Spinosa, Diderot and D’Holbach. the argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of Cosmogony you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. they say then that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may for ever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or Creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend.


(now he tells us what he thinks)
 on the contrary I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it’s parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition. the movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with it’s distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organised as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is , in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regenerator into new and other forms. we see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it’s course and order. stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. so irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have existed thro’ all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe. 
Jefferson in his own words to adams is describing an all powerful God designing creating and holding the world together SUPERNATURALLY.

Which makes you sir wrong. Jefferson was not a naturalist. given the date of this letter this was his thoughts later in life. (for those who like to claim as he got older the more atheist he became)


see again did not quote anything did not make any topical argument, just a move to dismissal.

No one cares Dripshit.
It's all irrelevant and total rubbish.
It's also the argument from authority fallacy.
Jefferson may have been well-read and educated. He was not a professional philosopher, ethicist, or theologian.
He has nothing, other than his personal opinions, to offer about any subject, (except how to keep slaves and run a farm).
What he did or did not say about religions or any subject other than his primary profession is all totally irrelevant.
Quoting him in BIG letters does not make the drivel anything other than drivel.
No one cares?!?!?
Dance ROFL2 Chuckle Double Finger Trophy Chuckle Lol2 LaughAt

then why hijack my thread and defend you revisionist BS for going on 3 weeks if you don't care?

Why did your buddies take up and defend your revisionist history if no one cares?

You can't even remember why Jefferson was even introduced into the topic, and your diatribe after your admission of defeat "I don't care" screams it.

If you will remember you were first learning about non denominational christian belief from me, and did not understand it represents the majority of this country's modern christianity. so you crapped on and doubted everything I had to say, that nondenominational belief was something I myself made up. So I point back to jefferson who really was the father of non traditional/denominational belief in God.

The above TJ to JA quoted letter is proof of that, as calvinism is a denomination TJ is starkly against. (as well as the other denominations he mentions)

Then he outlines a belief in the almighty God unlike any other creed of his time. but still within the structure of Christianity as he himself identifies as a christian. 

Your statement "no one cares" is proof people like you do not seek proof of God, that you claim to seek. that you are not atheist, but a misotheist. You need to be right in all things, will have you cast proof/truth a side just as you did here, just so you can be right.

You are so intellectually dishonest you do not even remember why you have taken up the revisionist history of TJ. "it does not matter/no one cares." As demonstrated per your own actions; when you are proven wrong you drop any and all claims to Jefferson by throwing him under the bus by judging this man out of his time and morals to your own spiritual buffoonery.

This man even in the context of your spiritual bullshatery is a far greater man, who has contributed far more to this country than 10 generations of your ancestorship could or should every hope to accomplishment.

Who are you to judge jefferson? One who has never examined history outside of revisionist blogs or commentary that tells you what to think, to judge a man like this? Maybe get a job who's hourly wage will not be increased by a mandated 15.00 an hour, read the works and letters of TJ, spend time reading what he had to say rather than what other have said or speculate about him. Then maybe when you have your next conversation concerning a documented point of history, that still exists but your default position is the revisionist anti God propaganda, you will not have to back into the "who cares" corner..

LMAO
No one cares. I never said I was "judging Jefferson". He was what he was. A slave-owning farmer.
And here you go ... on your "Christian (LOL)" insult-rant *again*. Yawn.

I studied history, fool, at a real school, beyond the 5th Grade. Unlike you. I have a job dear. I make at least twice what you do. Your "non-hippie" Jebus would be very proud of your Christian insults. 

No one cares about your foolish idiotic LOW class videos in which you drone on and on in a monotone.
Post you crap somewhere else.
No one cares about you garbage here. No one cares.
It's not "your thread". Are you a contributing member ? LOL
Just go away. If you don't have the balls and can't handle push-back, go post on your (supposed) Christian forums on which you *claim* to post.
No one would be testing out videos on an atheist site if they really was allowed to post on Christian sites.
You're a first class fraud.
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