Vaping as Deadly as Tobacco?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I've decided the lungs are a piss poor way to get stuff into your blood stream.  If I ever get a hankering to enjoy some weed again I think I'd prefer to eat it.  Leave the airway for, you know, breathing.

I've had edibles that far surpass anything I've smoked, too, in terms of quality buzz.

[Fireball]

I've decided the lungs are a piss poor way to get stuff into your blood stream.  If I ever get a hankering to enjoy some weed again I think I'd prefer to eat it.  Leave the airway for, you know, breathing.

Don't know if I've mentioned this.

One day one of the office scamps brought along a plate of home made hash cookies. I only found out after the event because he knew I'm allergic to weed. (makes me vomit and I hallucinate) .  Anyway, the office was unusually quiet that  afternoon .  Stupid thing to do; our home baker would have  been sacked if he had been found out by some one without a sense of humour.

Here in the US, that's called poisoning. 

[grympy]

I've decided the lungs are a piss poor way to get stuff into your blood stream.  If I ever get a hankering to enjoy some weed again I think I'd prefer to eat it.  Leave the airway for, you know, breathing.

Don't know if I've mentioned this.

One day one of the office scamps brought along a plate of home made hash cookies. I only found out after the event because he knew I'm allergic to weed. (makes me vomit and I hallucinate) .  Anyway, the office was unusually quiet that  afternoon .  Stupid thing to do; our home baker would have  been sacked if he had been found out by some one without a sense of humour.

Here in the US, that's called poisoning. 

Not at all. All those who were given the cookies knew what they were given. 

 Same office. The husband of one of the women had one of the franchise "CheeseCake Shops" . Can't remember if this made it to the papers. Seems one of the bakers made a 'special cake' to take to a party.  It contained weed.  He put it aside .Somehow, it was accidently  sold, and went to a kids' birthday party. Several several kids and a grandmother ended up in hospital

As one  may imagine , the cheesecake hit the fan. Nearly  cost the bloke his franchise.THAT'S what WE call poisoning  here in Australia

[Fireball]

Don't know if I've mentioned this.

One day one of the office scamps brought along a plate of home made hash cookies. I only found out after the event because he knew I'm allergic to weed. (makes me vomit and I hallucinate) .  Anyway, the office was unusually quiet that  afternoon .  Stupid thing to do; our home baker would have  been sacked if he had been found out by some one without a sense of humour.

Here in the US, that's called poisoning. 

Not at all. All those who were given the cookies knew what they were given. 

 Same office. The husband of one of the women had one of the franchise "CheeseCake Shops" . Can't remember if this made it to the papers. Seems one of the bakers made a 'special cake' to take to a party.  It contained weed.  He put it aside .Somehow, it was accidently  sold, and went to a kids' birthday party. Several several kids and a grandmother ended up in hospital

As one  may imagine , the cheesecake hit the fan. Nearly  cost the bloke his franchise.THAT'S what WE call poisoning  here in Australia

Guess I missed where they were willing participants. My bad.

[skyking]

The CDC found a connection on the vaping injuries to a common additive to THC. Vitamin E acetate is often used in oils and creams with no ill effect, but when the same diluted THC solution is heated, the acetate burns lung tissues.
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_inform...sease.html

[Dom]

I've decided the lungs are a piss poor way to get stuff into your blood stream.  If I ever get a hankering to enjoy some weed again I think I'd prefer to eat it.  Leave the airway for, you know, breathing.

Don't know if I've mentioned this.

One day one of the office scamps brought along a plate of home made hash cookies. I only found out after the event because he knew I'm allergic to weed. (makes me vomit and I hallucinate) .  Anyway, the office was unusually quiet that  afternoon .  Stupid thing to do; our home baker would have  been sacked if he had been found out by some one without a sense of humour.

Time to regulate what goes into vaping oils, and also nutritional supplements. People are killing themselves with both, while both can be very beneficial also. That's when I say it needs to be regulated and have quality inspections, just like food and drink. You want to know what exactly you are putting into your body.

[skyking]

Easy to see how the vitamin E acetate ends up in vaping oils. It is commonly added to THC and then gets marketed on the wholesale market as "THC". It is a disastrous situation.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

This may seem a minor nit to pick, but I do wish the term "oil" would be dropped from use as a general term. I vaped for over two years and never once bought or made a vaping oil. Calling all e-liquids oils is incorrect. Oils account for less than half of the vaping products. Vegetable glycerin,propylene glycol or a mixture of the two are by far the most common liquids used to carry the flavorings and nicotine. The vaping of oils is almost exclusively within the domain of people looking to get high, not those looking to get their nicotine fix.

When properly mixed, e-liquids don't need the chemicals that are causing the problems doctors are starting to see, and their recent addition to commercially available liquids is the reason we've not seen these problems for a lot longer. Vaping has been happening for well over a decade now and the tried and true e-liquid blends have never caused these problems.

You need a degree and a license to mix two chemical compounds and sell it from a pharmacy, but any asshole with a grade school chemistry set and a $1000 stake can start a business making and selling e-liquids online. Regulate the crap out of these products, shut down the back-room and kitchen mixers that are selling their crappy, badly-mixed, often toxic products on the internet and you'll have a viable tobacco replacement, and possible cessation tool, to complement the pills, patches and lozenges. No one method works for everyone trying to quit, but all methods work for someone.

The calls to ban these products has more to do with peoples Pavlovian response to seeing someone doing something that looks like smoking than to do with any health concerns. I'd be willing to bet that most people, if told the patch would randomly cause fatal heart attacks in 5-10 percent of the people who used them, there would be little to no outcry and no movement to ban them, for two reasons. One, They're marketed as a cessation tool despite having a track record similar to cold turkey. Two, they don't produce a stinky* white cloud that we've all been trained to fear far beyond the actual health hazards.

*I think this is the single greatest reason tobacco bans have gone as far as they have. It's not the danger to others, but the stink that's driving smokers 25-, 50-, even 100-feet away from public buildings and in some jurisdictions, even open air public areas.

[SYZ]

This may seem a minor nit to pick, but I do wish the term "oil" would be dropped from use as a general term.

What would be a more appropriate definition? I can only think of "E-liquid" which is the common Aussie term.

At any rate, a ban on nicotine-containing E-cigarettes has been upheld by The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA)
meaning that people who want to vape nicotine cannot do so legally.  While it's legal to buy any E-cigarette device in
Australia, importing nicotine pods/liquid constitutes mail fraud.  Obviously this ban is ineffective as far as overseas
on-line selling goes, particularly from the Asian market.

Our state cancer councils are also concerned about something called the "on-ramp effect", whereby young people are
not only using E-cigarettes but they're then transitioning too easily to combustible cigarettes. Currently, 13% of teenagers
aged between 12–17 in Australia have already tried E-cigarettes. Educators and health experts say big tobacco companies
are hooking a new generation of children on smoking by marketing candy-flavoured E-cigarette liquids with glamorous
social media imagery.

 

And it's no surprise that Phillip Morris owns a 35% share of Juul, the biggest seller of these devices in the US at
72% market share.  And one Juul pod contains the same amount of nicotine as one to two packs of cigarettes.

The calls to ban these products has more to do with peoples Pavlovian response to seeing someone doing something that looks like smoking than to do with any health concerns.

I'd have to disagree on this claim. In Australia, the proposed banning has everything to do with the health concerns.

I'd be willing to bet that most people, if told the patch would randomly cause fatal heart attacks in 5-10 percent of the people who used them...

Citation please.  According to a PubMed report "Cardiovascular safety of transdermal nicotine patches in patients
with coronary artery disease who try to quit smoking" by Tzivoni D. et al:

Because high doses of nicotine may increase heart rate and potentiate cardiac arrhythmia or ischaemia, its use
in patients with coronary artery disease was investigated... The cardiovascular effects of nicotine patches were
assessed by repeated ambulatory ECG monitoring (AEM) and exercise testing... The use of nicotine patches did
not cause aggravation of myocardial ischaemia or arrouphythmia in coronary patients and therefore can be used
as a method to promote smoking cessation in this high-risk group.

...I think this is the single greatest reason tobacco bans have gone as far as they have. It's not the danger to others, but the stink that's driving smokers 25-, 50-, even 100-feet away from public buildings and in some jurisdictions, even open air public areas.

There's obviously a different train of thought about the negative health effects of (passive) mainstream and/or
sidestream smoking in the US compared with Australia.

According to the Australian government's department of health, there is no safe level of passive smoking.
Second-hand smoke is a serious health threat:  For every 8 smokers who die from a smoking-related disease,
1 non-smoker dies from second-hand smoke exposure, and non-smokers who live with a smoker have a 25%
to 30% greater risk of developing heart disease. If children live with someone who regularly smokes in their
home, they breathe in the same amount of nicotine as if they were smoking 60 to 150 cigarettes a year. This
amount is enough to be considered an occasional smoker.    Ouch!

[TheGentlemanBastard]

This may seem a minor nit to pick, but I do wish the term "oil" would be dropped from use as a general term.

What would be a more appropriate definition? I can only think of "E-liquid" which is the common Aussie term.

E-liquid certainly works for me since it covers any liquid at all used for vaping, including oils.

I'd be willing to bet that most people, if told the patch would randomly cause fatal heart attacks in 5-10 percent of the people who used them...

Citation please.  According to a PubMed report "Cardiovascular safety of transdermal nicotine patches in patients
with coronary artery disease who try to quit smoking" by Tzivoni D. et al:

Let me clarify here. I was not intending to claim any health risk involved with patches and, in point of fact, do not know of any. I was using that to point up the negative response to vaping as a nicotine replacement, at least here in the states, because it makes clouds, just like smoking, but please do continue taking comments out of context and replying to them under a false assumption instead of just asking for clarification.

Also for clarity... I do not presume to speak for Australia or Australians, but to speak to the ignorance I see around me every day here in the "good ol' U.S.A."

[Cavebear]

Don't know if I've mentioned this.

One day one of the office scamps brought along a plate of home made hash cookies. I only found out after the event because he knew I'm allergic to weed. (makes me vomit and I hallucinate) .  Anyway, the office was unusually quiet that  afternoon .  Stupid thing to do; our home baker would have  been sacked if he had been found out by some one without a sense of humour.

Here in the US, that's called poisoning. 

Not at all. All those who were given the cookies knew what they were given. 

 Same office. The husband of one of the women had one of the franchise "CheeseCake Shops" . Can't remember if this made it to the papers. Seems one of the bakers made a 'special cake' to take to a party.  It contained weed.  He put it aside .Somehow, it was accidently  sold, and went to a kids' birthday party. Several several kids and a grandmother ended up in hospital

As one  may imagine , the cheesecake hit the fan. Nearly  cost the bloke his franchise.THAT'S what WE call poisoning  here in Australia

Source?

[Ferdinand]

Dom touched up on this earlier and I didn’t read everything here so this might have already been said, but the girl that started the End Vaping Movement or whatever (she was hospitalized for vaping with severe lung damage and she’s pretty much what blew this up and gathered attention for a couple of other people that had been hospitalized- and I’m talking like??? 5 people max??? Not really a lot of people) and come to find out the reason these people were hospitalized was not because they were vaping company manufactured store bought oils, but because they were vaping modded cartridges – basically people making their own cartridges at home and selling them to friends/online. A lot of people will empty dab cards into cartridges and sell them and that’s what the girl who happened to start the movement did– and that’s why she was hospitalized. She was using the vape in a way it technically shouldn’t be used without the knowledge of how to make a safe cartridge. She got a LOT of harassment on her social, not quite from people who thought she was lying about generally vaping, but from people realizing she started this movement by lying to the public about WHAT she was vaping and where it came from.

[SYZ]

Can't remember if this made it to the papers. Seems one of the bakers made a 'special cake' to take to a party...

Source?

Independent UK, News of the Weird, 30 January 1999.

    

[adey67]

This may seem a minor nit to pick, but I do wish the term "oil" would be dropped from use as a general term. I vaped for over two years and never once bought or made a vaping oil. Calling all e-liquids oils is incorrect. Oils account for less than half of the vaping products. Vegetable glycerin,propylene glycol or a mixture of the two are by far the most common liquids used to carry the flavorings and nicotine. The vaping of oils is almost exclusively within the domain of people looking to get high, not those looking to get their nicotine fix.

When properly mixed, e-liquids don't need the chemicals that are causing the problems doctors are starting to see, and their recent addition to commercially available liquids is the reason we've not seen these problems for a lot longer. Vaping has been happening for well over a decade now and the tried and true e-liquid blends have never caused these problems.

You need a degree and a license to mix two chemical compounds and sell it from a pharmacy, but any asshole with a grade school chemistry set and a $1000 stake can start a business making and selling e-liquids online. Regulate the crap out of these products, shut down the back-room and kitchen mixers that are selling their crappy, badly-mixed, often toxic products on the internet and you'll have a viable tobacco replacement, and possible cessation tool, to complement the pills, patches and lozenges. No one method works for everyone trying to quit, but all methods work for someone.

The calls to ban these products has more to do with peoples Pavlovian response to seeing someone doing something that looks like smoking than to do with any health concerns. I'd be willing to bet that most people, if told the patch would randomly cause fatal heart attacks in 5-10 percent of the people who used them, there would be little to no outcry and no movement to ban them, for two reasons. One, They're marketed as a cessation tool despite having a track record similar to cold turkey. Two, they don't produce a stinky* white cloud that we've all been trained to fear far beyond the actual health hazards.

*I think this is the single greatest reason tobacco bans have gone as far as they have. It's not the danger to others, but the stink that's driving smokers 25-, 50-, even 100-feet away from public buildings and in some jurisdictions, even open air public areas.

Brilliant post Mr B. I turned from a 40 a day habit to none using both patches and an e cigarette my breathing is better and I'm saving a ton of money plus I don't smell anymore and now people want to ban my e cigarette because in the last year or two a small handful of people vaping cannabis oil died and one 16 year old in Britain with allergy issues was hospitalised, how many have died from tobacco products in that time period I wonder? Probably thousands. It's a pavlovian response as you pointed out probably started by and supported by life long non smokers who have absolutely zero idea how horrible nicotine withdrawal is and who give absolutely zero fucks either, they clearly have control issues imao. I wish they would bug out of my life and just be happy I no longer stink them out with cigarettes. Rant over.

Edit: I want to make it clear that this isn't a dig at anyone here per se, I'm simply venting frustration at law makers and pressure groups who hate smoking and want to stop it but complain and want to ban any techniques that don't fit into their narrow cookie cutter view of how to do it, I find that controlling to the extreme.

[SYZ]

The controversial Australian vaping debate has heated up [sic ] with news Philip Morris (Altria) has applied to the
Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) to legalise one of its products. The tobacco giant has submitted an
application to amend laws to allow for the sale of heated tobacco products containing nicotine in Australia.

Philip Morris says scientific assessment shows they produce lower levels of toxic chemicals than cigarettes,
although they were forced to admit that vaping nicotine was "not risk free".

The point that Philip Morris conveniently ignores of course is that nicotine is strongly addictive, more so
than cocaine or heroin.  Philip Morris Australia used to give all its employees two cartons of free cigarettes
every month—whether they were smokers or not.  It'll be interesting to see how many law suits the company
will have to defend in the near future, as many of those employees—both past and present—develop cancers.

[SYZ]

Vaping pods containing nicotine are currently banned here in Australia.

What started as a way for some people to wean themselves off cigarettes has turned into a
new kind of addiction made worse by the ability to vape just about anywhere. In other cases,
people who started vaping just because the Juul was around have developed new nicotine habits.
For both types of users, quitting has proven immensely difficult.

People are throwing their Juuls out windows and drenching them in water just to quit

While vaping was initially positioned as a smoking cessation tool, it’s increasingly being cast in
a darker light. A mysterious lung disease has killed at least six people in the US with more than
450 cases reported, and officials believe it’s linked to vaping—though the exact cause is still
unknown. The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has asked anyone who uses a vape
to stop while they investigate, and the American Lung Association did the same.

And unlike in the US (apparently?) vaping is prohibited in the same smoke-free areas as tobacco
smoking, including public transport, retail stores, offices, theatres, parks and playgrounds etc.

[grympy]

SYZ touched on this:

Nicotine is a highly addictive POISON , with some very nasty health effects . That it's 'safer' than tobacco is a matter of degree ,and a misleading claim :

The full article cited below is worth reading .Took me all of 30 seconds to find it

---"There is decreased immune response and it also poses ill impacts on the reproductive health. It affects the cell proliferation, oxidative stress, apoptosis, DNA mutation by various mechanisms which leads to cancer. It also affects the tumor proliferation and metastasis and causes resistance to chemo and radio therapeutic agents. The use of nicotine needs regulation. The sale of nicotine should be under supervision of trained medical personnel"

There is also a list of studies showing nicotine is a carcinogen.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/\


Please don't misunderstand. As far as I'm concerned each individual adult has the right to suicidally stupid behaviour . I only object when I, as part of the community, have to pay for the effects of said behaviour .


As far as I can see, the marketing of vaping is as dishonest as the marketing of tobacco once was. In my opinion, its sale and use should be as tightly controlled as is tobacco in Australia.-------EG sold only to those 18 an older, VERY high taxation, making it as expensive as tobacco, no advertising, including at point of sale, each pack with health warning, use banned in all public places.

From what I've been able to find out, vaping is NOT a safe alternative to tobacco and should never have been permitted.

[Minimalist]

Philip Morris says scientific assessment

Beware of tobacco companies submitting "scientific evidence."