The Evil God Challenge by Stephen Law

[EvieTheAvocado]

[Alan V]

That's an interesting argument. But giving people the freedom to choose (free will) is considered good rather than evil, since most people do good with it. So I would assume an evil God would never give free will to people, but would keep us all as his slaves to do evil. What would be his motivation to do otherwise?

[EvieTheAvocado]

The idea is that just as good isn't really good unless it's freely chosen: evil isn't really evil unless it's freely chosen. The evil god wants you to be able to choose evil otherwise you're not really doing evil.

So, it's the same reasoning the good god has.

When people use their supposed freedom to rape each other ... I wouldn't consider that good.

Sure, most people don't rape ... but some things are bad enough that they're not worth it even if only a few people are doing it.

[Alan V]

I think a completely determined world where we were always torturing each other and ourselves, but had no hope of stopping, would be worse.

So no, I still don't believe Satan would give us free will. He would want to guarantee continual pain and suffering, like in hell.

[Paleophyte]

I think a completely determined world where we were always torturing each other and ourselves, but had no hope of stopping, would be worse.

So no, I still don't believe Satan would give us free will.  He would want to guarantee continual pain and suffering, like in hell.

I think a completely determined world where we were always loving each other and ourselves, but had no hope of stopping, would be better.

So no, I still don't believe God would give us free will.  He would want to guarantee continual bliss and ecstasy, like in heaven.

Can you see the difference?

[Alan V]

I think a completely determined world where we were always torturing each other and ourselves, but had no hope of stopping, would be worse.

So no, I still don't believe Satan would give us free will.  He would want to guarantee continual pain and suffering, like in hell.

I think a completely determined world where we were always loving each other and ourselves, but had no hope of stopping, would be better.

So no, I still don't believe God would give us free will.  He would want to guarantee continual bliss and ecstasy, like in heaven.

Can you see the difference?

So you don't think free will would be preferred by either God or Satan?  That seems a reasonable position.

[EvieTheAvocado]

I think a completely determined world where we were always torturing each other and ourselves, but had no hope of stopping, would be worse.

Agreed.

So no, I still don't believe Satan would give us free will. He would want to guarantee continual pain and suffering, like in hell.

But this isn't Satan. This is if God was evil. Satan is a being that God created and Satan's purpose is to punish the bad guys. That's not the same thing.



This evil God wants people to voluntarily choose evil for the same reason that a good God wants people to voluntarily choose good.

Perhaps 'evil God' is a bit of misnomer because, yes, indeed, I agree—we can imagine a God that would be even more evil.

The real point is that it's just as (im)plausible that there might exist a being that would want us to freely choose evil as it is that there might exist a being that would want us to freely choose good. So, 'free will' does not solve the problem of evil. That's the key point.

[epronovost]

What's the actual difference between a world where people always chose to do good/evil and a world in which people can only do good/evil? I don't think there is any difference.

[Dānu]

One solution is where all the choices are good/evil, and the only alternative is inaction. Just like we can't fly, but we can walk or crawl, a world and creatures that could only do good/evil doesn't seem to have any obvious objections, and would be the ideal. The alternative is arguing that this is the best/worst of all possible worlds, which strikes me as a conjecture based on what one wishes to be true rather than anything real.

[EvieTheAvocado]

I think a completely determined world where we were always torturing each other and ourselves, but had no hope of stopping, would be worse.

I'd also like to point out that ... as well as agreeing with this above ... that a world where people are always torturing each other but they had no choice is worse than a world where people chose to do it.

I also think a world where people always treated each other well, and never tortured, raped or killed each other, and treated animals well, but out of no choice ... would be a better world than a world with free will where people had choices but they had choices to do bad things.

That's why 'free will' doesn't solve the problem of evil, for me. Because, even if it's possible, a truly good God would prefer a world where we had no choice but to treat each other well (and we didn't want to have the choice to do otherwise) than a world where we had choices but some of the options were horrible to both ourselves and others.

[EvieTheAvocado]

What's the actual difference between a world where people always chose to do good/evil and a world in which people can only do good/evil? I don't think there is any difference.

I don't think there's any morally significant difference. Most people think there is but I think they're wrong.

[EvieTheAvocado]

I think a completely determined world where we were always loving each other and ourselves, but had no hope of stopping, would be better.

Agreed!

[Alan V]

That's why 'free will' doesn't solve the problem of evil, for me. Because, even if it's possible, a truly good God would prefer a world where we had no choice but to treat each other well (and we didn't want to have the choice to do otherwise) than a world where we had choices but some of the options were horrible to both ourselves and others.

After all, God supposedly created our basic human nature anyway, as well as the nature of the world itself....

[EvieTheAvocado]

Yep.

And, 'free will' in the strong form that he supposedly gave us is actually incompatible with his knowing what our future actions will be.

[Drich]

Glob...

so why can't a good ALL powerful God allow evil..

What if evil is subjective?

What if evil or evil as we know it is not even the tip of the ice berg?

What if the bounds of evil go so deep it would destroy our minds to be in the sheer presences of it?

Put it this way.
let say you had a fish tank, and the worst thing that could ever happen to one of your prized fish is someone mixes up the food and gives them fresh water fish food or the salt in the tank is off.. maybe they get sick. or maybe the become acustom to your specific tank and can not live anywhere else..

Now in this tank, to those fish, the wrong food.. is akin to rape and murder because they do not know the true evils of the deep blue sea.

Just like us, if a Good god protects us from true evil, then what ever is left no matter how mundane, it will be considered to be the end of the world to the drama queens living in the tank.

Yes rape and murder/war are bad because no one wants to be raped or murdered..  how ever without them the human race would be extinct. either we never explore outside of our clans and die of inbreeding or we are subject to tyranny or over population. it is a tough pill to swallow but a necessary one for species to survive.

Now if you can get past the emotion of someone telling you lived a privileged tank life. (again not that out perils are not real, but do not compare to life in the ocean) let look at your idea of God and how far it is from what the bible describes...

As the video point out you are looking for a 'good god.'

God does not claim to be good or loving. not as you understand these terms i the english anyway.

God says he is all powerful and agape'.

Agape' is in the english translated in to the word love. but it represents a specific aspect of this word. as there are 6 words in the koine greek that all get translated into the word love. So all forms can not translated into old sweet grandpa wh would not alow anything bad happen.

Agape' means or is represented by the type of love that will see some one through or the do whatever it takes to see someone through the changes needed to fully grow and mature.

yes I know many people translate agape into 'perfect love' or God's love or the perfect love of God, but again you are adding your own definition of love. as Your idea of love excludes all hardship and pain, hardship and pain is evident from day one of the NT, and doe not care for comfort as the focus is on growth and development which often is only motivated by pain and suffering.

So to a degree you video is right your idea of a good god does not exist. however it just because your religious view are wrong and have always been doesn't mean the bible does not describe a God that is there for all to see, not just special seers or prophets. In fact that is what separates all of christian from every other religion. in biblical christianity God is put one on one with his people. there are no need for priests prophets or anyone else.

You want proof of God meet him on his terms, and he promises to show up.

So why is there any evil in this world/why do we need salvation if we can not help ourselves?

God orginally made a perfect world. then he gave it to man to care for. man sinned and gave the world to satan.
In some christian religions satan oly rules hell. not according tot he bible. in the bible we learn via the book of job and with the temptations of Christ Satan owns/runs this world but with a few restrictions. Which means everything on this world and everything in belongs to him including us as we are born not int free will but to slavery of sin.

Bringing back the fishtank.  This world in the tank.. God has final say what happens to the tank as he owns it. however the water the reef the fish all belong to satan. if you wish to be born a fish in the tank and die a fish in the tank you can.. just know the owner of the tank is not going to let you live forever. at some point he is looking to have a fish fry.

Now enter Jesus.. he dies making a deal allowing the father to take any fish who want to go to his protected reef in the ocean. but here's the thing.. the fish from the tank can not go straight to the ocean. they are not use to the pure ocean water the other wild life the blessings of open water living nor the hazzards. if these tank fish where dumped on the reef they would mostly die in a day or two or wreak havoc. rather these fish have to be integrated slowing and acclimated to the water and all of the changes. and to integrate us it took the blood of Christ to do it.

one of the biggest lies in this video that satan (his tak/world his propaganda) is heaven is about good people or being Good.. no fuck that. the bible never says we have to earn our favor with God by slaving away at church or for the religion... we are to come as we are knowing not one of us has earned out position as it is a free gift from God.

All we need do is elect to not fried when we are pulled out of the tank rather be sent to the reef. There is no good or bad about it! Morality is not a factor at all.its not about the rules it is not about doing more. as we are all sinners which means we can only breath tank water, it is not about being a morally good or a better fish. it is a matter of being a slave to the tank, and can not exist outside of it. not we are exceptible/good because we can breathe clean ocean reef water on our own, but we are made to breath through Jesus' sacrifice.. like wise we are sinners not as a measure of morality but because we are born slaves to the sin in this world. and through christ we experience the Agape of God.

[Bucky Ball]

Always the wall of BS from Drippy.
.... and this guy says he owns a successful business, yet has the time for these wall of BS.

Bwahahahahahahahaha

Yes rape and murder/war are bad because no one wants to be raped or murdered..  how ever without them the human race would be extinct. either we never explore outside of our clans and die of inbreeding or we are subject to tyranny or over population. it is a tough pill to swallow but a necessary one for species to survive.

LMAO .... that's classic Drippy brain shit.

Show me one place that god says "I am agape".
Take your time, Drippy.

[Drich]

Always the wall of BS from Drippy.
.... and this guy says he owns a successful business, yet has the time for these wall of BS.

Bwahahahahahahahaha

Yes rape and murder/war are bad because no one wants to be raped or murdered..  how ever without them the human race would be extinct. either we never explore outside of our clans and die of inbreeding or we are subject to tyranny or over population. it is a tough pill to swallow but a necessary one for species to survive.

LMAO .... that's classic Drippy brain shit.

  I was hoping it would be you!
now educate yourself fool:

here a dissertation from harvard on rape and how it has impacted even beneficiated the species.
https://cyber.harvard.edu/vaw00/theories_of_rape.html

here is a dumbed down version the nytimes wrote on the same subject (you might want to start here)
http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/first/t...-rape.html

then you got good olde wiki.. even if you do not like the idea of wiki pages if you look at the bottom there is over a dozen links to actual real source material
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiolo...es_of_rape

murder/war is an easy one to demonstrate.

we are at 7 billion people. during WWII alone 80 million died. say about 1/3 where women. that's abut 27 million women the fertility rate is 2.5 per woman globally.. so. 27,000,000 times 2.5= 67,500,000 more added to the boomers 33,750,000 more women times 2.5=
84,375,000 gen xers 42,187,500. this means 105,468,750 millinels 52,734,375 women.. which means 131,835,938 people on this earth if you only look at the women who died in WWII

No other wars men/soldiers where not considered no other murders of conflicts. 131 million people more.. Imagine if there were no war no murders and everyone lived to 100. you guys are loosing your minds about over population and global warming now... do you know how much rain forrest has to be cut down to feed that many more people?

[Drich]

I can face time you any time you want and give you the factory tour! I did this for lucky or losty (i get them confused still/one of them hates me and the other doesn't like me..) and a few others already. just let me know (obviously can only show one location at a time) plus tuesdays and fridays are big car auction days.

[Bucky Ball]

Always the wall of BS from Drippy.
.... and this guy says he owns a successful business, yet has the time for these wall of BS.

Bwahahahahahahahaha

Yes rape and murder/war are bad because no one wants to be raped or murdered..  how ever without them the human race would be extinct. either we never explore outside of our clans and die of inbreeding or we are subject to tyranny or over population. it is a tough pill to swallow but a necessary one for species to survive.

LMAO .... that's classic Drippy brain shit.

  I was hoping it would be you!
now educate yourself fool:

here a dissertation from harvard on rape and how it has impacted even beneficiated the species.
https://cyber.harvard.edu/vaw00/theories_of_rape.html

here is a dumbed down version the nytimes wrote on the same subject (you might want to start here)
http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/first/t...-rape.html

then you got good olde wiki.. even if you do not like the idea of wiki pages if you look at the bottom there is over a dozen links to actual real source material
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiolo...es_of_rape

murder/war is an easy one to demonstrate.

we are at 7 billion people. during WWII alone 80 million died. say about 1/3 where women. that's abut 27 million women the fertility rate is 2.5 per woman globally.. so. 27,000,000 times 2.5= 67,500,000 more added to the boomers 33,750,000 more women times 2.5=
84,375,000 gen xers 42,187,500. this means 105,468,750 millinels 52,734,375 women.. which means 131,835,938 people on this earth if you only look at the women who died in WWII

No other wars men/soldiers where not considered no other murders of conflicts. 131 million people more.. Imagine if there were no war no murders and everyone lived to 100. you guys are loosing your minds about over population and global warming now... do you know how much rain forrest has to be cut down to feed that many more people?

There is no such word "beneficiated". It's "benefited".

You claimed (a total lie)

how ever without them (murder and rape) the human race would be extinct

There is not one shred of evidence for that false claim. The links you provided do not say that.

It appears your mind is quite disordered.
You need help.
Badly.

There are 7.7 billion people alive today, which far more than exceeds your claimed total decrease from war.
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
Killing in war is not (necessarily) "murder".
Why is it your god(s) can't intervene in this ? Oh. Never mind ... they don't exist.
You really are an ignorant fool.

[Bucky Ball]

Always the wall of BS from Drippy.
.... and this guy says he owns a successful business, yet has the time for these wall of BS.

Bwahahahahahahahaha

Yes rape and murder/war are bad because no one wants to be raped or murdered..  how ever without them the human race would be extinct. either we never explore outside of our clans and die of inbreeding or we are subject to tyranny or over population. it is a tough pill to swallow but a necessary one for species to survive.

LMAO .... that's classic Drippy brain shit.

  I was hoping it would be you!
now educate yourself fool:

here a dissertation from harvard on rape and how it has impacted even beneficiated the species.
https://cyber.harvard.edu/vaw00/theories_of_rape.html

here is a dumbed down version the nytimes wrote on the same subject (you might want to start here)
http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/first/t...-rape.html

then you got good olde wiki.. even if you do not like the idea of wiki pages if you look at the bottom there is over a dozen links to actual real source material
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiolo...es_of_rape

murder/war is an easy one to demonstrate.

we are at 7 billion people. during WWII alone 80 million died. say about 1/3 where women. that's abut 27 million women the fertility rate is 2.5 per woman globally.. so. 27,000,000 times 2.5= 67,500,000 more added to the boomers 33,750,000 more women times 2.5=
84,375,000 gen xers 42,187,500. this means 105,468,750 millinels 52,734,375 women.. which means 131,835,938 people on this earth if you only look at the women who died in WWII

No other wars men/soldiers where not considered no other murders of conflicts. 131 million people more.. Imagine if there were no war no murders and everyone lived to 100. you guys are loosing your minds about over population and global warming now... do you know how much rain forrest has to be cut down to feed that many more people?

So just to be more specific about Drippy's lies here. 
The first and the third reference say nothing about what he claims. 
The second one is a discussion of the highly controversial book by Thornhill and Palmer, "A Natural History of Rape (2000)". The book is pretty much universally thought to be junk science. https://fair.org/extra/in-rape-debate-co...edibility/
Turns out one of the devastating reviews was by Jerry Coyne (U of Chicago) whom many of us know from his work on Evolution. 
Coyne New Republic–4/3/00. The references are dishonest and irrelevant and in no way say anything even remotely supporting what Drippy has suggested they say. 

There is no evidence that rape is adaptive, and obviously on it's face could not be. Evolution promotes what is group-forming. Rape is destructive to the group.
If either rape or murder were genetic adaptations, then there would be identified groups where everyone (in a LONG line) ... a family, would have a rate of the behaviors above the average.

[Paleophyte]

Put it this way.
let say you had a fish tank, and the worst thing that could ever happen to one of your prized fish is someone mixes up the food and gives them fresh water fish food or the salt in the tank is off.. maybe they get sick. or maybe the become acustom to your specific tank and can not live anywhere else..

Now in this tank, to those fish, the wrong food.. is akin to rape and murder because they do not know the true evils of the deep blue sea.

That's the joy of being omnipotent. You can always conjure better fish food from raw firmament. You never have to settle for a lesser of evils because you don't have to accept any at all. Or are you suggesting that your deity is too stoopid to keep a goldfish alive?

[Bucky Ball]

Actually the "wrong food" is not *even* akin to rape and murder.
(It's not "accustom" it's accustomed".)

This is known in Logic as the fallacy of the false analogy.
Rape and murder are anti-social crimes that destroy the group and harm society.
They are nothing like food. The wrong food would be poison. Eating the wrong food *by accident* is not a purposeful act.
If the fish were eating each other, it might be a proper analogy. It is not.

[epronovost]

@Drich

If there is an all powerful all good gods why didn't made creation all powerful (or at least indestructibe) and all good just like him? It sounds to me you are just trying to make excuses.

[EvieTheAvocado]

Yes rape and murder/war are bad because no one wants to be raped or murdered..  how ever without them the human race would be extinct.

LOL

So The Good Lord™ makes it so Rape and Murder/War ™ is required for the human race to survive. He didn't have to make it that way, since he's all-powerful, but making it that way is what a Truly Loving God™ would do!

[Dānu]

As the video point out you are looking for a 'good god.'

God does not claim to be good or loving. not as you understand these terms i the english anyway.

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him (Psalm 18:30).

Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way (Psalm 25:8).

The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth (Exodus 34:6).

Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever (1 Chronicles 16:34).

And they sang responsively, praising and giving thanks to the Lord: “For He is good, for His mercy endures forever toward Israel.” (Ezra 3:11)

Good and upright is the Lord (Psalm 25:8).

The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works (Psalm 145:9).

No one is good but One, that is, God (Mark 10:18).

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning (James 1:17).

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! (Matthew 7:11).

I would have lost heart, unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living (Psalm 27:13).

I will meditate on the glorious splendor of Your majesty, and on Your wondrous works. Men shall speak of the might of Your awesome acts, and I will declare Your greatness. They shall utter the memory of Your great goodness, and shall sing of Your righteousness (Psalm 145:5-7).

He loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of the goodness of the Lord (Psalm 33:5).

Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who trusts in Him! (Psalm 34:8).

Be thankful to Him, and bless His name. For the Lord is good; His mercy is everlasting (Psalm 100:4-5).

Oh, that men would give thanks to the Lord for His goodness, and for His wonderful works to the children of men! For He satisfies the longing soul, and fills the hungry soul with goodness (Psalm 107:8-9).

As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust (Psalm 103:13-14).

Teach me to do Your will, for You are my God; Your Spirit is good. Lead me in the land of uprightness (Psalm 143:10).

The Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him (Psalm 92:15).

You are good, and do good; teach me Your statutes (Psalm 119:68).

You also gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, and did not withhold Your manna from their mouth, and gave them water for their thirst (Nehemiah 9:20).

Hear me, O Lord, for Your lovingkindness is good; turn to me according to the multitude of Your tender mercies (Psalm 69:16).

Oh, how great is Your goodness, which You have laid up for those who fear You, which You have prepared for those who trust in You in the presence of the sons of men! You shall hide them in the secret place of Your presence from the plots of man; You shall keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues (Psalm 31:19-20).