"Until death do you part". Obsolete?

[Dānu]

In short I am against certainty and much preffer people being aware that what seem easy now may not be so tomorrow. I don't like arrogance in any form - and till death do it's part is as arrogant statement of belief in oneself as such statements can get.

Are you certain? Are you against certainty for all time, or can we anticipate you changing your view tomorrow? Words are cheap. If you're just going to say one thing one day and another thing the next, then why should we take what you say seriously? Or are you committed to always advocating this position, until and unless you find something fatal to it? And if that is the case, then how is your commitment to that position and your advocacy of it any different than the marriage vow? That seems rather inconsistent to me, if not outright hypocritical. Are you just virtue signaling here?

[Szuchow]

In short I am against certainty and much preffer people being aware that what seem easy now may not be so tomorrow. I don't like arrogance in any form - and till death do it's part is as arrogant statement of belief in oneself as such statements can get.

Are you certain?  Are you against certainty for all time, or can we anticipate you changing your view tomorrow?  Words are cheap.  If you're just going to say one thing one day and another thing the next, then why should we take what you say seriously?  Or are you committed to always advocating this position, until and unless you find something fatal to it?  And if that is the case, then how is your commitment to that position and your advocacy of it any different than the marriage vow?  That seems rather inconsistent to me, if not outright hypocritical.  Are you just virtue signaling here?

Did I hit some nerve? Such deluge of questions suggest so. 

I said my piece. Whether you get it or not I'm not gonna waste more time on answering your incessant rambling spiced with thinly veiled enmity.

Consider extoling virtues of promises to someone else. Maybe you will get some pat on the back for such "virtuous" stand in regard to vows.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Been married four times, divorced once.

So you're a Mormon?

No, but the subject should be considered carefully.

[SYZ]

...I can't control other people's actions, but that doesn't mean I cant control my own.

See my point below.

I can make the choice to remain dedicated to my spouse even when life gets hard. It seems like a cop out to say that just because a lot of other people get divorced, I won't make any promises myself. Other people's decisions in their marriage make no bearing on what I choose to do with my own.

What happens though in a scenario where one partner is totally dedicated, honest and loving to their spouse, but that
spouse eventually or ultimately makes different life choices which don't include you?  I agree that one can certainly make
and adhere to one's own principles in a marriage, but that doesn't preclude the other other partner from altering their
principles on an ad hoc basis.  No amount of good intentions on your part can stop that.

And I think you're overstating your claim about other peoples' failed marriages not affecting your own (nor should they
of course). But nobody here has suggested that that they should.  We're just stating the simple fact that nearly 50% of
marriages end in divorce.

[SYZ]

Been married four times, divorced once.

So you're a Mormon?

No, but the subject should be considered carefully.

Fuck me... what? Becoming a Mormon?     

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My first wife was stabbed to death in a grocery store parking lot. My third one died watching TV. I was in the hospital at the time.

[Dānu]

In short I am against certainty and much preffer people being aware that what seem easy now may not be so tomorrow. I don't like arrogance in any form - and till death do it's part is as arrogant statement of belief in oneself as such statements can get.

Are you certain?  Are you against certainty for all time, or can we anticipate you changing your view tomorrow?  Words are cheap.  If you're just going to say one thing one day and another thing the next, then why should we take what you say seriously?  Or are you committed to always advocating this position, until and unless you find something fatal to it?  And if that is the case, then how is your commitment to that position and your advocacy of it any different than the marriage vow?  That seems rather inconsistent to me, if not outright hypocritical.  Are you just virtue signaling here?

Did I hit some nerve? Such deluge of questions suggest so. 

I said my piece. Whether you get it or not I'm not gonna waste more time on answering your incessant rambling spiced with thinly veiled enmity.

Consider extoling virtues of promises to someone else. Maybe you will get some pat on the back for such "virtuous"  stand in regard to vows.

"Sir Robin bravely ran away!"

[Dānu]

My incessant rambling. That sounds like something jerry has said. Should I use smaller words?

[SYZ]

[Catholic_Lady]

...I can't control other people's actions, but that doesn't mean I cant control my own.

See my point below.

I can make the choice to remain dedicated to my spouse even when life gets hard. It seems like a cop out to say that just because a lot of other people get divorced, I won't make any promises myself. Other people's decisions in their marriage make no bearing on what I choose to do with my own.

What happens though in a scenario where one partner is totally dedicated, honest and loving to their spouse, but that
spouse eventually or ultimately makes different life choices which don't include you?  I agree that one can certainly make
and adhere to one's own principles in a marriage, but that doesn't preclude the other other partner from altering their
principles on an ad hoc basis.  No amount of good intentions on your part can stop that.

As I said on my post:

If the other spouse cheats, is abusive in any way, or decides they dont care/dont want to be with you anymore, obviously that leaves you with no healthy options but to walk away. But it isnt something I would voluntarily do otherwise when life gets hard or "things aren't fun anymore."

...I think I said that several times.

And I think you're overstating your claim about other peoples' failed marriages not affecting your own (nor should they 
of course). But nobody here has suggested that that they should.  We're just stating the simple fact that nearly 50% of 
marriages end in divorce.

Actually it seemed like that was exactly what the poster I was responding to was saying lol. That's why I responded the way I did. If I misunderstood, then my apologies.

[jerryg]

Do people get married with the assumption they'll get divorced nowadays?

Apparently, according to this California lawyer's website at least, most married couples don't think that their marriage will end in divorce.

https://www.oceansidedivorcelawfirm.com/...tatistics/

Despite half of all marriages ending in divorce, only 11% of couples state that there’s a chance their marriage could end in divorce and less than 5% have a prenup in place to protect their interests should they divorce

[*]15% of divorcees wish they had put a prenup in place before getting married

This makes me think rather than being obsolete, it's just a matter of people not being realistic about what they are getting into.  It's akin maybe to a 6 year old who wants a dog, and promises to do all the dog related chores.  

CL is saying it's really hard work, and people are saying "that's too hard."  Which is fine.  Nobody has to get married.  But that doesn't make it obsolete.  'Til death do us part is just a different level of commitment to another person, that nobody is obligated to take part in, but some may choose to.  

This is how I feel about biological family.  I think the obligation to that relationship, which many of the participants didn't even choose to enter, is nonsense.  But plenty of people stick that one out til death do them part, despite hardships and unhappiness it may cause them.  In the end, I think it boils down to "to each their own." in what sort of commitments people find fulfilling and wish to make.

[Dānu]

When family is successful, it's worthwhile. When family is not successful, it's not. I guess it might boil down to whether you want to invest in pessimism or hope.

[mordant]

Been married four times, divorced once.

You've got one over on me. In my third marriage, one divorce, one death.

[mordant]

duplicate ...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I really thought my third would be my last. Boss Lady had other ideas.

[mordant]

I thought it was kind of the default to marry and have kids. But nowadays, it seems like divorce is no longer a last resort. Sometimes, it seems like a given. Is a commitment "'til death do you part" silly to expect now? Have things changed? Is this a good thing? Why/why not?

I grew up with the same assumptions and it still represents a pleasing ideal to me. Intellectually I've come to see a lifetime relationship with minimal conflict / unwanted drama as something that happens to very few people and has a great deal to do with dumb luck.

Some years back I read some research by a guy who called the brass ring everyone wants "vital marriage" -- that being circumstance where the relationship is both party's greatest joy and that unfolds with little conflict. When you think about it, with over 50% of couples divorcing, that by no means shows that the other (let's say) 48% represent "vital" or even happy marriages. My intuition is that the majority of them are doing things like hoping things will get better, staying together "for the sake of the children" or other appearances, doing some form of "settling", etc. It is probably charitable to hypothesize that "vital" marriages that endure for life are very much in the single digits, probably sub 1% really.

These are not great odds if you're hoping for an idyllic, tranquil relationship that makes you want to pinch yourself every morning to make sure you're not dreaming.

If you have more realistic expectations, and you've managed to get to that place in life where you truly understand that existence owes you exactly nothing, then your choice is to make do with what a significant other is actually likely to bring to the plate, or avoid the whole game and learn to enjoy your own company.

If I were back on the market today at age 62, I can tell you that I would not be looking for wife #4, regardless of how I came to be unattached. It's just too much churn, and I've definitely (1) too old for this shit and (2) beyond all the FOMO anyway.

Other's mileage can and will vary.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

At 68 I would rather have someone else here.

[Dānu]

"Better married and fightin', than single and lonely."
~ Irish proverb

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'd made my peace with growing old single a long time ago. Out of nowhere the last five years have seen me fall in love twice. And though those didn't work, I'm glad for them all the same. Once more making my peace with growing old alone -- it's not what I prefer, but if that's what's in the cards I'm good. Lightning strikes when it damned well pleases and only a fool waits around for it.

[Dānu]

I'd made my peace with living out the rest of my life constantly depressed. Counting your chickens before they're hatched is not a good idea regardless of what you're hatching. Ultimately, it's a way to maintain the illusion of control. I can't be surprised or challenged because I already know everything the future holds.

[Catholic_Lady]

I also wanted to address everyone saying that half of marriages end in divorce, so you may as well know going in that you only have a 50% chance of working out. 

For one thing, that statistic is for the general population. It can go up or down depending on your situation. 

For example, if you and your spouse are college educated, got married after the age of 25, and make an annual combined income of over 80k a year, your chance of divorce goes down quite a bit from that 50%. 

It goes down even more if you are religious. And more if you lean conservative. And more if you went through some sort of premarital program before getting married. And more if neither one of you has a history of mental health issues or abuse.... and so on and so forth. 

It isnt a 50% chance across the board, and really depends on the people getting married and their situation. 

The only thing my husband and I had "going against us", according to those statistics is our age of 23 and 24 when we married. So there is no 50% chance of divorce here, and the same can be said about many others.

[Jenny]

I like the idea of sticking with one person til the end.  There's a feeling of safety there.  They're your rock and you're theirs.  Sure it might be romanticized in this day and age to think that way, but I think it is doable if both people truly want that.  I think being forever isn't something that's always going to be easy--there are going to be hard parts.  I think if you go into a marriage thinking everything will *always* be love and sunshine and there will be no hard parts, then you're setting yourself up for a huge let down.  However, imo, if you go into a marriage aware that there will sometimes be hard parts, but you both know you love each other enough to work through them--then I think a marriage has a very good chance of survival.  Forgive me for quoting Piper from "Orange is the New Black"   but I love this quote and it's how I feel about what a good marriage-worthy relationship is and what it means to me: "It's like coming home from a long trip...that's what love is like.  It's coming home."  I think that's something worth fighting for 

[GirlyMan]

I like the idea of sticking with one person til the end.  There's a feeling of safety there.  They're your rock and you're theirs.  Sure it might be romanticized in this day and age to think that way, but I think it is doable if both people truly want that. ...

33 years since me and ManlyGirl took those vows. Now I got inoperable cancer and those vows have become more immediate. They mean I wont die alone or unloved and there's someone to take me to radiation and chemo treatments and change my diapers when necessary. It's worth it if you can do it, but like Jenny says both people have to truly want that realizing it will leave one badly scarred and it's worth it anyway.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

With Sharon and Brenda I had so many more good memories than that one bad memory with each.

[Jenny]

I like the idea of sticking with one person til the end.  There's a feeling of safety there.  They're your rock and you're theirs.  Sure it might be romanticized in this day and age to think that way, but I think it is doable if both people truly want that. ...

33 years since me and ManlyGirl took those vows. Now I got inoperable cancer and those vows have become more immediate. They mean I wont die alone or unloved and there's someone to take me to radiation and chemo treatments and change my diapers when necessary. It's worth it if you can do it, but like Jenny says both people have to truly want that realizing it will leave one badly scarred and it's worth it anyway.

I’m so sorry to hear about what you’re going through.  *hugs* I’m so glad you have ManlyGirl to help you through all of it.   I’ve followed your posts over the years about your marriage with ManlyGirl. It’s clear you both really have such a deep love for each other. Between your relationship with Manly and FullCircle’s with his wife, it really makes me feel like relationships like the ones you guys have are possible.  So thank you both for that